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NARUTO CHAPTER 624 – AIKO

cecsBy Cesc and JdoggLuffyGearOne_by_hyrohiku

Kishi returned with an early release yesterday after 1 week break, and he picks up right where he left off last chapter. The two friends force to choose between family and friend as their brothers and fathers duke it out. I had hoped that the two would actually stand up for their friendship against their families, but they both quickly went to defend their brothers. I expected them of course to go to their brother’s aid but I didn’t expect Madara to have such a quick 180.

Madara’s Weak Resolve!

We all knew Madara would stray from the path of peace; the only question was when, and why. I think it safe to say I was not the MadaraeIzuna02only one that was disappointed at how easily and suddenly Madara turned. If people were angry at how Tobi became evil I can’t imagine how mad they’d be at this revelation; or perhaps no one else will care. Speaking for myself though, I find this to be much more disappointing than the Tobi/Obito incident; to me, Tobi had a better reason for turning to the dark side than Madara did here. I mean, in just the blink of an eye, he went from seeking peace to vowing to destroy his friend. I had also assumed that Madara knew Hashirama was a Senju and chose to ignore it, but now it seems he was not aware of that fact. But then Butsuma, Tajima, Izuna and Tobirama all seemed to know each other very well, so why is it that the two prodigies of the respective clans never once saw or heard of each other (a plot hole maybe). I am not entirely sure if that really is the first Madara awakened his sharingan, if it was then again I am disappointed. That being said, it does lay perfectly in line with Tobirama’s statement about sharingans being awakened when the Uchiha loses a loved one. In this case, even though Madara was making the choice to end his friendship with Hashirama, it still laid a big burden on him. It was a choice he felt he had to make, and he suffered emotional for it. I think that Cesc covered all and like him and many others is disturbed how quickly Madara changed his views, my first reaction to Madara’s change of heart was like “huh that quick, did Madara really become all dark and evil for that”. Now the more obvious answer is another of Kishi infamous faults at detail and logic. But there could be another explanation, could it be that Madara loved his brother so much that he was willing to dramatically change against his friends. This would make sense, but Hashirama did not threaten his brother, it was Butsuma, so this is another debate that I think we will have for a long time. So what do you guys think, did Madara sudden change of heart is a plot hole? or a more reasonable change?

Hashirama stays true!

hashirama_senju_by_sambuz-d4w831qHashirama is the complete opposite of Madara here, even though the two were faced with the exact same situation, Hashirama shows that he is not just a dreamer, he stayed true to his goal no matter what. He suffered the same losses at the hands of the Uchiha that Madara suffered at the hands of the Senju yet he handled it much better; this alone is enough proof that he is a true leader. The more Hashirama losses the stronger his resolve becomes while the same cannot be said for Madara, it is this difference in character that determined who would be stronger. Another thing to note about Hashirama is how powerful the Senju became once he was the Head. Also (and Cesc already touched on this), I don’t know if this is another fault of Kishi, but for a clan (Senju) to be superior to the Uchiha clan, and so far we have only seen a handful of them, why is that? Also, what made them so powerful? Was it just the fact that they had Hashirama and Tobirama? What was their bloodline limit or did they have any? The more I learn about the Senju clan the more I feel like they are a long lost clan like the Uzumaki, for a the supposedly most superior clan in all the hidden leaf village, it seems that they are all gone, like the all backed up and left. I don’t know if I am digging into this too much because it is obvious that Kishi messed up with the creation of the Senju clan, because so far they are the all powerful clan, yet they do not have a bloodline limit or anything specific that makes them stand out from your average clan.

hashirama_senju_by_homolagabor-d5w7p6qIt seems Tobirama was right, Uchiha do get stronger and fall down a path of hatred when they lose their loved ones. I am also very happy to see that Tobirama is the one to take out Izuna, maybe you all can stop doubting him now. Also, it was nice to finally get proof that the Senju pwned the Uchiha (take that uchiha fan boys, even you Kishi)! It was also a little disappointing that we didn’t get to see Izuna’s last moments; maybe we will also get a Madara flashback. Seriously though, I don’t miss Naruto and the current situation right now, I want to know more about the past, more so about Hashi and his end.

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111 Responses

  1. oh sweet, wasn’t expecting it here so quick, nice work jdogg. Iwas expecting a better chapter though, especially since there was none last week.

  2. I agree that BIG MAGNUM and MEGA MAGNUM’s story is far better than this war, even though it’s being rushed.

  3. To me, its just one of those chapters where it’s hard to tell if things are progressing too quickly or too slowly.

  4. Yeah I am with you CESC, after having epic scenes from that infamous battle of Madara vs Hashirama and seeing the rich personalities of the young Madara and Hashirama has put our standards high for a chapter, it is no wonder that this chapter does not live up to the previous chapters.

  5. im not so sure madara as fallen to the darkside yet. i think he just made a decision to not fight for a dream that could have began with the loss of his bro/father. i think madara going evil will be after kanoha is built, but he is definately on his way

  6. You are right, he isn’t quit evil yet, in his last show down with Hashirama he speaks of defending the Uchihas, what I meant was that he changed his entire midset about seeking peace way too easily. Hashirama did not threaten Izuna, he simply defended Tobirama as Madara defended Izuna, yet Madara just loses all hope and abandons his previous plans.

  7. I keep seeing people say the sensual don’t have a blood limit or anything in common but they are forgetting that what I realize is they all seem to have some type of sage mode! Just look at them! Naruto, Jiraiya, and now Hashirama! Tobirama also looks like he bares sage markings on his face and Tsunade! Maybe the Senju clan has the ability to manipulate natural energy to make them stronger!

  8. I know I haven’t commented in a while so hi everyone!

  9. I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding on this chapter.

    The change was not rushed or unrealistic; he chose to protect THE LAST OF HIS REMAINING BROTHERS. Maybe you need to have a brother to get it. From the get go we were shown that he thought that the path of peace was unrealistic. And the fact that his sharingan was activated by the trauma of loss he suffered when he cut off hashirama is proof of how deep the decision he made was. This was a great chapter but maybe kishi expected a bit much in terms of reader interpretation

  10. @cesc and Jdogg
    The Senju clan has a blood limit. Their blood limit is combining earth and water element to create wood. Impossible to copy or be use by a non-Senju. Part of the reason why it couldn’t be copied by Kakashi or any of the Uchiha clan members that battled with the Senjus.

    @yellowflash2
    Senju shinobis are more incline to using sage mode because they have a vast amount of chakra along with their durability of a body. Sage mode requires a lot of training dealing with their physical shape. Senju has superior bodies to most shinobis, causing the likelihood to acquiring sage mode more to happen. Also, Senju clan have people building forest with their wood release. The forestation would make them more tuned with nature. Heavily fixated on anything that has to do with that concept. Sage mode fits perfectly with that idea of nature and the body. Hence, the Senju experimenting more into Sage mode for higher physical form.

    @Token
    Replying to your comment on “it’s out.” you said that it was pathetic that Madara lost to Hashirama on multiple occasions? It’s not that pathetic when you look at how Madara was acually the second strongest shinobi during that time period. EMS Madara couldn’t be bested by anyone else except by Hashirama. Hashirama was unbeatable and it’s impressive that Madara was the only one that could put up a fight and go toe to toe with Hashirama on a one to one fight. No one else would be able to do that or made the fight last as long as Madara did against Hashirama. Why did you think Madara praise Hashirama so much? He did not see an equal. Only Hashirama was his road blockage in winning the war. The lost Madara indured by losing to Hashirama to call it truce, Madara made a comment about how he only wanted Hashirama to kill him. He would be honored only to be killed by the best shinobi and no one lesser to himself and Hashirama. It’s far from pathetic. It’s more noble. Hashirama is undeniably the strongest ninja other than the Sage of the Six Paths. Madara have earned the respect from the best and have put himself in the ranks of the greatest shinobis for battling with the best.

    Madara upgrades would pwn the 1st Hokage. The wood jutsu For having Hashirama original body attach to him would cancel out any wood jutsu the 1st Hokage would throw at him. Add that with his EMS and rinnegan and it’s game over.

  11. I disagree. I don’t think Madara has turned completely evil and his sudden change in direction IS WAY MORE REALISTIC than Obito. Losing a family member as opposed to a crush makes more sense. Honestly if I was in Madara shoes, I would of picked my family and defend them over the notion of what could be peace, something which hasn’t been seen in a long time for them. I thought this chapter was great.

  12. @nss7 its pathetic cause for all the talking the first hokage just looked tired while madara couldnt get off the ground and yet madara still tries to make orders while hes basically at the mercy of the first. Not only that but like ive said earlier tobi commented that izuna and madara were considered equals…. how would heknow that? I would assume madara told him as he was trained by him and had some kistory explained to him. Tobirama is the reason izuna died so by that logic at least two senju were able to take madara if tobi is to be believed. And how is it noble when the guy that just got wasted makes a demand that to understand his pain he either has to kill his bro or kill himself? Im sorry thats pathetic no matter how u look at it. Hasirama has lost brothers, family, friends too and yet madara says he doesnt understand his pain? He probably means the pain of having to put izuna out of his misery but boo hoo, And as for madara having the wood jutsu cancelling out the first im sorry ur talking about the person who is the most proficient wood user in all of naruto. Just cause Madara has wood tech doesnt mean he knows how to use to its full potential like the first. From what we have seen the first hokage hasnt exactly been beaten down by madara… just look at that second to last page or wherever it is where madara is lying on his back looking half past dead and the first is literally just kneeling beside him without many visible wounds or anything… ur forgetting that it was said that he could heal without even making seals so basically even if he was injured looks to me like he managed to take care of himself and not only that but just his chakra force even after that battle with MAdara WITH EMS was enough to make tobirama think twice about stabbing madara. And u say Madara would pwn the first hokage with all his new upgrades? We have seen madara use a plethora of rinnengan tech but which of those techs could the first not stop? the meteors the first could probably stop with wood tech like he did against the bijuudama, the all angles ability is easily dealt with as we have seen lesser ninja deal with, absorbing ninjutsu may be problematic but the first from what we have seen so far seems to use taijutsu and wood techs and has a sage mode himself to increase i would think his speed and strength, that big ass summon he made i think would be more than capable of slapping around any summon madara makes. I think why i say madara is pathetic is he tlaks as if hes the top dog and alpha dog and yet hes constantly getting whooped by the first hokage. Dont talk the talk unless u can walk the walk and in that time it could be argued MAdara was third best shinobi pre Ems and MAYBE second best with EMS.
    Also wood jutsu is not a bloodline limit of all the senju. Apparently only the first was able to do it. There is no other case or explanation stating that any other senju could do wood jutsu. It was said only the first possessed that ability and no one else has been stated to have it.
    @tawuya I dont think ppl have a problem with how deep his decision was I think alot o people dont like how quickly he turned. There was no hesitation, no constant thinking and debating about it, none of that one minute they were friends, their bros r attacked and all the sudden MAdara is against the first hokage and wants to fight him to the death? Its too sudden a turnaround at least lets see a gradual change. And I do have a brother I get it but the same could be said for hasirama. He lost brothers too and yet he still held to his beliefs. It takes a weak person to be so easily influenced without giving much thought to it. MAdara from the beginnning was weaker that hasirama and not just from a skill point. Kishi makes him look so quick to judge and make a decision on impulse rather than thinking about it.. MAdara cant really scold hasirama in anything seeing as how they both dealt with the same thing… not only that but madara acts like hes the only one that lost a bro or had to do a mercy killing… they r ninja its a part of their life. Get over it Madara people u love will die. Hasirama gave him chance after chance to join so much so that other uchiha joined the senju but madara was too stupid and blind by his own thinking. If he was smart he would have known the best thing to do was to join someone he considered his best friend who treated him like a equal and go from there. Thats y madara is pathetic; he had a chance to join with his friend, his bro would still be alive, and he and hasirama would work together and try to do something about the way of life they lived.

  13. @Token
    That proves my point. EMS Madara was the second strongest shinobi. How is it not honorable to be beat by the best instead of the worst. Pathetic would be if Madara lost to someone like Rock lee. That would be pathetic. But to lose to someone like Hashirama who could outclass everyone is far from pathetic. Madara personally made a request, wanting Hashirama to kill him and nobody else. Hashirama is the only worthy opponent that Madara would want to lose to. He didn’t give two shit about anyone else but Hashirama. The vision Madara saw with peace was that it was unrealistic. He knew that making peace with the Senju would burden his clan, and erase his leadership role amongst the Uchihas. When push comes to shove, it indeed happened when the allience was form between the two clans. The Uchihas would be mistrusted and treated like second class citizens. Madara wasn’t pathetic in his decision to fight this truce. There was nothing in the peace alliance, but to benefit the Senju while stripping the Uchihas of their freedom. If what you said about Hashirama the only Senju that has a blood limit than that makes him a completely different monster. EMS Madara would’ve taken over the Senju clan if it wasn’t for Hashirama. Wood jutsu by the hands of Hashirama was probably the biggest difference between winning and losing. Madara might’ve lost many times against Hashirama, but no other shinobi name pops up in the history of shinobis to have stood their ground against Hashirama but Madara. That in it itself is more respectful than tarnishing. You also said it yourself, EMS Madara was second strongest to the 1st. 

    Tobi saying Madara and Izuna were equals? Itachi said that. http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/386/5
    They were both young at this time when this was mention. As they got older, it never specifically renew that they were still equal. Madara fought a stronger opponent than his brother did and didn’t lose until the last two pages.

  14. I said perhaps madara was second best but that in itself is open for debate. And here is what i said about pathetic u keep misunderstanding why i say he is pathetic:
    ” I think why i say madara is pathetic is he talks as if hes the top dog and alpha dog and yet hes constantly getting whooped by the first hokage. Dont talk the talk unless u can walk the walk and in that time it could be argued MAdara was third best shinobi pre Ems and MAYBE second best with EMS.” Him being pathetic doesnt have to do with him losing to the first but rather how he makes demands and stuff while getting whooped around the yard. Thats what is pathetic and honestly thats just sad….. how can madara even think to make demands when he cant do anything about it and he is just playing with the first hokages view of him. Not only that how do u know madara would have taken over the senju clan if not for the first? Can i see references where the first hokage was the only thing standing in his way? The manga literally says that the uchiha were outclassed by the senju. it didnt say because of the first the senju were outclassed or anything like that. THe senju outclassed them cause they were far superior:
    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/36848288/15
    Just because the first hokage had wood jutsu its clear that the other senju werent exactly lacking and if the uchiha with the all powerful sharingans couldnt compete with the senju they were ore than just the first and second hokage (speaking of the second hokage remember that izuna himself had MS…. so the second hokage defeated a uchiha with MS just as his bro did against madara. Looks to me like those two bros were quite a duo and it wasnt jsut hashirama carrying the senju)
    The senju were already basically pwning the uchiha so what else did madara exactly have to lose? If he was smart he would have tried to make it work after all he knew more than anyone that the first hokage was fair so y not try for it? Thats just stupid on his part. He can moan about unfairness and stuff but frankly they have no right to say anything in the first place. As victors against the uchiha the senju can make whatever decisions they want. Its due to hasirama’s kindness to madara that the uchiha even lasted that long and madara saw that and still didnt pay attention. Since when do the losers of a war cry and moan about being treated equal? Madara is stupid and thats my take on MAdara lol.

  15. @Token
    Senju can do whatever they want? That’s what ended up happening and look where it lead to. It wasn’t peace. Uchihas were isolated and treated like towel rags for the Senju. If that was the vision of peace then it was nothing more than a lie on Hashirama part. How is that fair? Hashirama cheated the Uchihas out of the deal and he acts like he did justice when in fact he demoted them to second class citizens. He may be acting nice about the whole situation but the reality is that he made them out to be the losers and in some sense tainted them and shame them as power hungry shinobis tht can’t be trusted. There is no justice in that.

    Once again, the pathetic arguement doesn’t hold up when Madara lost to one of the greatest shinobis of all time. He made a demand to be killed by the best, which is a form of acceptance that he has awknowledge Hashirama to be superior. There is nothing pathetic about accepting defeat by someone who can outclass anyone. The pathetic part was listening to Hashirama’s proposal of lies about peace. Madara wanted to die right there at the hands of Hashirama, it was futile living the lie that Madara knew that was going to come with accepting truce. Madara fought for what he believed in and he was right. Izuna warned him that the Senju couldn’t be trusted. Madara earn the respect from shinobis all around the world for facing Hashirama. That is no where near pathetic. He talks big because he didn’t want Uchiha to have deal with being caged in and treated poorly. Fighting and attempting to try and beat the Senju was the only way to sought out freedom for his clan. Building the leaf was the worst peace proposal. The leaf village history isn’t sqeeky clean. The foundation of the leaf lead to betrayal amongst Uchihas by exiling Madara. Lead to Uchihas be segregated and later, almost lead the Uchihas toward extinction. For the Senju, that might’ve been peace, but for the Uchihas, they were deceived. There is nothing fair about that.

  16. Actually thats not what happened….. the first hokage and second hokage actually integrated the uchiha somewhat into their system hence why they were the police of the village. The uchiha while seperated and in their own area were a part of Konoha so clearly they did allow the uchiha to survive at least for a little while and even gave them positions.. which is far more than they deserved considering they were rebels, were going to do a coup d at, were war hungry, blood thirsty, and craved power. In a ninja world what right do they have to ask for anything? They were lucky that the first allowed them to live much less be apart of Konoha. Not only that but it wasnt the senju that ended them but the elders who decided against them and wanted them killed. Not only that itachi himself saw them as a threat and agreed to do the deed himself… what does it say that their own clan member who the first hokage and others have deemed wise beyond his years wanted them to be gone? The uchiha werent just loathed by those outside like the senju but within their own clan. If your own clan memebers like itachi and shusui thought they were no good than y bother with them? The first hokage made a mistake by not doin away with madara in the first place due to the fact that look what happened because of it… by not killing him than there were and still r reprucsions for not killing him.
    His name earned respect from ppl around the world but ppl in the uchiha clan disagreed with him lol. PEOPLE IN HIS OWN CLAN DIDNT AGREE WITH HIM. People who fought with him went to the senju and defected. And its not pathetic to tell the person who whooped ur ass that he doesnt know pain and wont till either he kills himself or his bro? Thats just pathetic im sorry.To know my pain? what a idiot… MAdara is clearly the only one to lose a bro… o wait hashirama lost family to the uchiha too. Well madara was the only one that fought for what he belived in… o wait hashirama is doin that too. MAdara believes the uchiha are the most powerful clan and fights cause he thinks they deserve to be rulers over everything it has nothing to do with their best interests. Senju couldnt be trusted? THE UCHIHA COULDNT BE TRUSTED lol they were gonna overthrow the leaf village later on!! what r u talking about the senju couldnt be trusted. They gave them some kind of usefullness at least.
    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/36848288/19You have to kill yourself or your bro with your own hands than ill wipe the slate clean? REally? Thats not just a tad bit sad? Whos the one that didnt look at the proposal by hasirama? whos the one that fights just cause he feels that peace can never be acheived? will true peace ever be ully acheived? No but its worth heading towards even if it seems hopeless and thats what seperates the weak from the strong… as hard and impossible as it may seem always try hard to make the world as good as u can make it.. MAdara just gives up on that dream and like all weak ppl he doesnt really want to fight for what can really help instead he just fights for his way cause its easier

  17. @nss7 and Token

    I wouldn’t go as far as calling Madera pathetic, but he did himself and his clan no justice.

    The only thing that stood between the Uchiha and total annihilation was Hashirama; I’m sure the Uchihas had their own victories, but every major battle it seems was won by the Senju.

    Madera fell for the first time because he did one thing different, he did not retreat; I am certain Hashirama could have killed Madara during any of their prior battles but he still considered him a friend and still believed he could convince him to get a truce. Madera kept refusing his offer time after time, the other Uchiha noticed they were getting royally owned and saw no reason to keep fighting. Madara had made up his mind since that day he awakened his sharingan and refused to listen to reason, so the other Uchiha decided to leave.

    If Madara had listened to Hashirama sooner his brother would still be alive, but as it was by the time he finally came around it was too late; he had lost too much and peace was no longer an option for him. This is Hashirama’s only mistake, he should have seen that his friend was too far gone.

    Hashirama is not the one that mistreated the Uchiha, he stayed true to his word even after Madara tried to rally the Uchiha against him again. It wasn’t until Tobirama was Hokage that the Uchiha were isolated and made the police of Konoha. This mistrust of course was brought on by Madara, who was unhappy at not being made the first Hokage. Tobirama of course never trusted the Uchiha like his father, he only put up with them because of Hashirama, the same for Izuna, I am guessing Madara might have accepted a truce sooner if it was not for Izuna’s distrust of the Senju; we must keep in mind Madara and Hashirama aren’t the only ones that lost brothers; Izuna and Tobirama suffered just as much. The difference Hashirama had a stronger resolve than Madara, so Tobirama could not influence him as Izuna influenced Madara.

  18. @Token
    Who wouldn’t fight for peace even if it was hopeless? Why would you join for peace when the peace that was sought after lead to the demise of your own clan? You say how lucky the Uchihas were given the opportunity for Hashirama to let them live inside Konoha. The problem with that statement is that Uchihas were also the founder of Konoha but personally got isolated by the Senju and given a role in the police force to be spied on. You call that peace? All higher authority of power went to the Senju. They had the final say in everything that goes on in Konoha. The Uchihas didn’t get to propose anything and strip of their freedom to live anywhere outside of their isolated area. The vision of peace Madara and Hashirama dreamt of when they were younger was not the reality that ended up happening. How is it that Senju isn’t to blame when Hashirama was the one that propose the peace treaty? Uchihas should never have join in the first place to all the lies that Hashirama would trick them in. Who would want to join a peace commitment that turns you into a second class citizen? That is the worst form of peace and even in real life, history have shown that sort of peace is more hateful than fair. Madara had the right to deny the peace proposal and keep fighting back or else the Uchihas would have to live under the mercy of the Senju and be controlled like puppets.

    It may be true that the Uchihas didn’t accepted Madara except in this case, the Uchihas would later follow in Madara’s view and realize the peace that was establish to build Konoha was nothing but lies. They were slowly losing their freedom to the Senju. The pathetic arguement doesn’t have any merit. Both Madara and Hashirama fought hard for their different view points, which makes them respectable in their own right. Madara fought just as hard as Hashirama. That is not pathetic. Fighting to make the world a better place is great, but not when you have to demote yourself and have your own clan be shun by other clans. How did Madara take the easy way out when he wanted the Uchihas to be rulers of their own clan or their own fate? They had that freedom when they weren’t a part of joining with the Senjus. Joining with them was their worst mistake. that’s when their fate was decided by the Senjus and not themselves. The hate for the Uchihas I want to rebel was caused by the mistreatment of the Senjus. Madara saw it first and left when no one joined him. Then the mistreatment didn’t stop, so the Uchihas started to become rebellious around the time Itachi became an Abu. It happened overtime that the Uchihas were constantly treated like dirt that made hem angry and become a rebel. It didn’t just happen out of the blue. If the Uchihas got almost the same amount of respect and attention that the Senju had over power from the very beginning, this may never had happen to begin with. The fact that it did, Senju are as much to blame as the Uchihas.

  19. In terms of madara being stubborn and stupid cesc hit it right on the head so im not even goin to bother talking about that anymore. As for the uchiha being treated like puppets i dont know how much i have to say this….. the uchiha lose the battle so who says they have a say in anything for one. In any battle real or fake the losers of the war dont make conditions or even expect to be treated like equals to those who they were defeated by. Its just common sense. Madara wasnt fighting to make the world a better place. He was fighting for the glory of the Uchiha and their pride nothing else. He was fighting for peace anymore . He wanted the uchiha to be rulers over everyone not just be on their own and tahts where i dont think u get it. Madara isnt fighting for peace or anythign he is fighting for supremecy which like any dictator is pride and selfish. The uchihas didnt get teh same respect cause honestly what did they do to deserve it? They tried to battle and defeat the senju time and tie again… they lost time and time again and still kept being stubborn until a few realized it was stupid to try to do that. The senju arent faultless but at least during the first reign he viewed the uchiha as equal. Its not his fault that his bro didnt share that same dream. But honestly it speaks volumes that even after his bro died tobirama himself didnt have them killed. For all of his hatred it would appear his respect for his bros ideals won out over his prejudice and call it what u want but even giving the uchiha their own area was a lot more than they deserved seeing as how they had zero right to call shots. Do u think it would be fair if the enemy we defeat joins us and we give them the same exact power as we do 50/50? Nope those who win will always have the power over the other and thats how its been in real life and in narutoverse. The uchiha should have been glad they were spared for a while.As much as hasirama cared about madara his mistake is that he gave him one too many chances… thats what happens when u give a uchiha one too many lol. And cause of that mistake the current generation is suffering.

  20. Also keep in mind nss7, Hashirama did not betray the Uchiha, at least that isn’t what we’ve been told. I suggest you wait until Hashirama is done with his story before you accuse him of anything. I am drawing conclusions right now from what I’ve come to learn about Hashirama and Madara. Nothing we have learned would suggest that Hashirama would say one thing to Madara and then do the opposite. Also keep in mind Hashirama did NOT have to seek a truce, the Uchiha were the ones indeed of it. Hashi and the Senju could have simply wiped out the Uchiha if the chose to, then they’d have their peace, but Hashirama is a man of his word and isn’t quick to give up on his goal.

    Ps. I do not blame Madara for refusing a treaty, but he had no right to jeopardize the peace the Uchiha found under Hashirama. Madara was simply but hurt that his clan now had a new leader that wasn’t him and so he tried to start up a war again.

  21. @Token
    The strong dominate to have the final say, but not when it comes to taking away rights from a clan specifically. Hashirama and all the Senjus got to call their shots, but why did all their decisions descriminated specifically towards the Uchihas? Madara fought hard to keep the pride of the Uchihas going. If a peace was going to be made, it shouldn’t be to corner and mistreat a certain group of people or clan. There was a bunch of other clans forming and coming into Konoha, but only the Uchihas were dealted poorly. That’s not just about power. People have rights. No one should be tricked into forming an alliance for peace to be cheated on their rights and isolated into a small section of the village. In real life, that only leads to hatred and uncivilized acts of unrighteousness. That is exactly what Hashirama did. He did not just take away authority. He took away their rights to live like everyone else. Uchihas have every right to be mad for rules being made that goes against them in every single way. In retrospect, it wasn’t peace. It was an abuse of power. To say Madara was wrong in not wanting to accept Hashirama proposal is not entirely true. Being a respectful clan that fights to conquer brought more credibility to the Uchihas and gave them more rights than they ever did with joining Senju. Any place that segregates and descriminated to enforce rules is the worst kind of governing. Hashirama Is a great shinobi but his way of acquiring peace is not as innocent as everyone thinks. One way or another, Hashirama couldn’t put enough trust in the Uchihas to give them a place that they felt home and not mistreated them as badly the way that he has done even though it was the uchihas founded the village along with him. Madara realized this distrust long before everyone else did and left. Uchihas would come to terms with the same conclusion and rebel. If Uchihas had the same rights as everyone else, the clan would have decimated into variety of clans like the Senjus by mating with other people. Problem would’ve been solved. Except Hashirama took the road to descrimatorty actions instead to keep all the Uchihas together in a small portion and keep their hatred growing with mishandling the situation. Like what said before, form of segragation is the worst way to treat people and clans.

  22. Maybe the uchihas were dealt with differently cause unlike the other clans they kept provoking the senju over and over again. From this history we know the uchiha were the only ones even close in power to the senju and with what we have seen they werent close either. Not only that when were they tricked by hashirama? they may have been lied to by tobirama but hashirama from what we have seen has been more than fair and iwlling to oblige them. Where did it say hasirama was the one who did all this unjust stuff? Btw its funny u say that cause the uchiha are the ones who came to the conclusion that being put up as the police force in konoha was a sign of distrust…in the manga in chapter 399 http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/12.html
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/13.html
    Tobi STATES that the police force was a way of making them dogs… however whos to say that it was true? Tobi has proven to not be trusted and from what we have seen from the first he was willing to be supportative and listen to madara and even after his death like I said the second must have not felt as strongly as he once did as he is the one who put them in the special police force and he DIDNOT have them exterminated like he wanted to do in the past. Hasirama isnt the one who discriminated and did the unjust things and later had them cleaned off the map. The first hokage was true to his word so far and frankly he was a little too good. How were the uchiha tricked? They were losers in a war and through the first hokage they were able to survive on… not only that but he was elected first hokage and from what we know madara was mad… ummm y would he be mad? As leader of the most powerful clan why shouldnt he be hokage? But anyway who would give 50/50 rights to a clan that has shown that they are bloodthirsty and will always have a grudge against the senju?That makes zero political and logical sense to give them alot of power to a enemy who u know hates your guts

  23. @Token
    Right there. That’s the point. They placed the Uchihas as the police task force to watch over them. Uchihas didn’t become rebels until the Senju repeatingly taken away their environment and cave them into a smaller portion of the village. If Hashirama wanted to make the right decisions regarding to the Uchihas, he should’ve have granted them more freedom like the Senju (not power, but freedom dealing with human rights) and they would’ve saw other people to slowly help them blend into the population. Look at the Senjus. Where are they now? They are almost non existing and have splitted into a number of different clans. If the Uchihas had the same freedom, they would’ve mixed with other clans genetically and less civil unheaval would’ve occurred. Hashirama and the Senju misjudgment did nothing but kept their clan alive along with all their genetic hatred towards the Senju. That is on the fault of Hashirama along with the Senju. Hashirama has his hands dirty like Madara in some sense.

  24. No nss7 lol thats what tobi said they did but that may not be entirely true. Human rights? what did the senju do to them that was so unethical and unjsut and inhuman? WE dont know yet what happened to the senju as they very well may just be integrated into other clans. Can u list what misjudgements hasriama made instead of just repeating that statement over and over without mentioning once what he did wrong. What did the first hokage do that was so dirty?

  25. First of all , great review guys. I’d like to first say that nss7 and token remind me of how democrats and republicans act with there arguments lol. But I do agree with token when it comes down to hashirama doing nothing wrong, IMO he had every right to just end madaras life since madara is acting like a spoiled brat and never tried to come to truths. How ever i do agree with nss7 that tobirama did place the uchihas in the police force to keep them in checked because that was proven a couple chapters back, tobirama even stated something like this so what i placed them in a position they were affective and good at. That being said i stead of them trying to wipe out the village they could have tried to talk to the 3rd hokage and worked something out, i say that because Danzo and the elders only opted to wipe them out because the uchihas wanted revenge.

  26. Skill wise madara seems to always trail behind hashirama, but naruto was the one trailing behind the uchiha.

  27. naruto trailed behind sasuke because he didn’t have anyone teaching him ninjutsu or about life for that matter. remember naruto was basically alone all his life till Iruka decided to open up to Naruto. The Third only looks after him, and he learns whatever school taught him. Only after that, Naruto had Jiraiya, then Pa toad and finally Kurama.
    So i’d say naruto is a late bloomer because he basically learnt/taught himself in the earlier part of his life.

  28. not much is really known of what exactly happened after the village is created but we do know the 2nd didnt trust the Uchiha’s, that from Itachi the uchiha’s knew the MS and EMS was possible and they tried countless ways to increase they power, Madara had disagreements with the uchiha and 1st left his clan, collected tailed beasts and challenged 1st. With this said im sure the 2nd knew all this happened and seen what could be if the uchiha were left unchecked so he moved them which though was wrong was in the best interest of the village. We already seen how strongly opposed the 2nd is to Sasuke but there’s no right or wrong in what anyone did

  29. Sasuke had his family but no one really taught him ninjutsu either, he basically looked at what the others were doing an tried to copy. He didn’t have teacher until orochimaru came into the picture same as when jiraya came for naruto.

  30. My first comment here. I usually read but after all this discussion about Madara vs. Hashirama or Uchiha vs. Senju I thought I add a bit of how I see this argument. Personally, I always favored Sasuke & Madara as my favorite characters. Not a fan of Naruto, but a great fan of Hashirama because of the likability of the character (strong but down to earth, & a very profound vision with an eye always on the bigger picture unlike Naruto: Hey I am going to do this because this is just who I am). I am also not a fan of Naruto as I feel that usually a manga’s main character comes out on top only because he is supposed to; things work out in his favor no matter what (Ichigo is a prime example, to see the other end of the spectrum see Yagami Light from Death Note).

    There should be no doubt that Madara & Hashirama were two of the best shinobi. Madara certainly lost to Hashirama as we see in the last manga. But at the end of it all one has to keep in mind that you can only appreciate the light when you know dark, good when you have seen bad.

    To that end the debate about who is best or 2nd best is pointless. You need have one to appreciate the other.

  31. @Darkmagician, first of all welcome to this messy discussion and secondly love the name man, just brought back memories of all the Duels. But to rebuttal, Naruto has been through so many struggles in the beginning but as time progressed he learned to be a powerful Ninja even though he’s been through hell. (Same with Sasuke)

    @nss7, the wood element was unique only to Hashirama, no one was and is able to duplicate what he did with the exception of Madara and Yamato and a few others that are able to copy it to an extent.

    But the Uchiha in my opinion are a bunch of cry babies. Sure they were mistreated, sure during the first war their comrades were being killed, but they act like it is not happening to their enemy as well. It is hypocritical for the Uchiha, being the best Ninja when part of being a Ninja is that eventually death comes for you. So instead of embracing a glories death by a superior opponent they bitch and moan about revenge. For someone like Madara who was all about peace and prosperity when he was a kid, than changed his view because he saw that the blood-hatred between the Uchiha and Senju is unstoppable, and to accept that war is the only answer. Than to go on about revenge for his brother is childish. Which by the way how did he die when he was blind, did he die from the eye transfusion or was he still able to fight while blind? Either way the Uchiha are a bunch of whiners who talk about revenge this and revenge that, when their revenge is not justifiable because revenge is acceptable when someone is killed in cold blood, but Izuna was killed during a war, what was Hashirama and Tobirama supposed to do, let Izuna kill them. Listen when someone attacks you, you either defend yourself or attack back, and killing that person is a right in its own. So what gives Madara the right to talk about revenge when Hashirama’s previous brothers were killed, but did he go about talking about revenge? No, did he bitch and moan about his brothers being killed? No, did he become this vengeful person, bent on killing his opponents? No, why is Hashirama different than Madara, is it simple, because Hashirama is not a whinner, he saw that the war was an endless war that would lead to endless killings so he set out to stop the war through treats, not more killings, even at the expense of putting aside his brothers death. Now I still have respect for Madara because he is badass, but from most of the Uchiha we have seen so far, all have the trait of being bent on revenge with the exception of Itachi and Shisui.

    @yellowflash2, nice theory, but we really have not seen that many Senju clan members, maybe a handful, but I still want to know where the hell they are right now in the present time.

  32. @Jdogg They probably either integrated themselves into other clans, or got wiped out.

  33. How can the most powerful clan get wiped out and not be known or mentioned. There is something missing or I might be going to much into it.

  34. @Jdogg
    “So instead of embracing a glories death by a superior opponent they bitch and moan about revenge” Madara has done exactly what your statement suggested. He accepted his defeat to Hashirama and wanted him to kill him. Not necessarily revenge. It was a glorious death that Hashirama refuse to give him. Madara only suggested a vengeful way to help resolve the bond between him and Hashirama only because Hashirama refuse to give him a glorious death in the first place. He has already accepted Hashirama to be the superior shinobi. Even as kids, he opening said that Hashirama was stronger than he was. Then in present time vs the 5 kages, he glorifies Hashirama as a superior shinobi to the status of a god.

    Uchihas are not the only clan bent on revenge. The Senju were in the same boat. Tobirama and his father are cold blooded killers towards the Uchihas as the Uchihas are to them. Taking that into account, we can assume the Senju perspective about the Uchihas are similar to how the Uchihas view them. They have killed Uchihas and showed no remorse for their enemies like Tobirama and his father has done. Hashirama is the exception like how Itachi and Shi Sui was the exception amongst the Uchihas. Same idea. The Senju is no different. However when it comes to creating the leaf village, The Senju did a poor job in their treatment of the Uchiha clan. Uchihas may have lost, but it was the Senju that provoked the Uchihas in the direction of rebel and war. There was some mistrust and isolation that took place before the police force was set up for the Uchihas. Before that system was set up, the Uchihas were already being slowly pushed back into a smaller area within the village. This all took place when Hashirama was still Hokage. If the Uchihas wasn’t pushed back and have to live in an isolated area, their clans would’ve mix genetically with other clans by meeting and mating with new people outside. Uchihas genetic resentment and their clan would’ve disappeared like the Senju did. But Hashirama and the Senju wrongly misstep continue to let the clan survive amongst themselves by trapping them, continuing their long history of hatred at the Senju.

    “How can the most powerful clan get wiped out and not be known or mentioned.” Their clan wasn’t wiped out. Their Clan got a tons more freedom than the Uchihas did. Senju clan genetics disperse in to many different clans like the Uzumaki because of mixing with and dating other people from other clans. Uchihas didn’t get the same treatment and only dated with people in their restricted area, causing the Uchiha clan to live on and survive long than any other clan.

    About Naruto being a hero because he is suppose vs everything that falls in his favor. Everything does fall into his favor. So much so that it’s too hacked and glitch to even accept his role in the war as a hero. All the planning and strategy in the war revolve around only Naruto. Everyone was clueless when it came to the Zetsu mystery. They all have to be reliant and dependable on Naruto despite the stake was high to protect him at all cost. Naruto fought the war for all the wrong reasons. He broke out of the restricted area that kept him safe, defies the order from the higher ups, and put himself out their to increase the likelihood to be capture and lead the world in total destruction. Even Shukaku plans all included Naruto. Shukaku suppose to be intelligent, but all we saw from this war was that he was either confuse or relied on only Naruto to solve his problems for him.

    Naruto gets blessed with unique abilities that no other jinchurriki can do. One of those abilities is being able to sense evil presence which no body else in the history of the Naruto manga series has done before or can do. Naruto is the ONLY one that can sense dark chakra. ONLY ONE. Where did that even come from? Never mentioned that evil can be sense but apparently Naruto or his tailed beast Kurama can do it out of their asses. Killer Bee and Hachibi can’t do half the things Naruto can do even though they been partnered for a much longer time period. All these new abilities and set up of war was as if everything was place for Naruto to become a hero by default. To add fuel to the fire, Naruto even brags on and on about destiny and being picked for the role like he’s some spoiled brat who thinks too highly of themselves in a situation that matters most. who would want an immature and ignorant spoiled brat representing them in leading the war against their opponent?

    This is even the first time where a war was this disturbingly dependent on only one person to save the day. Not even the 4th Hokage was showered with this much importance. The 4th Hokage never to have said to be the one that ended the war on his own or have so many people dependent on him to win. Not to mention, the 4th Hokage didn’t talk non sense and go off saying things like “I’ll tackle on this war by myself and put all the burden on my shoulder” or “I can do it. Believe in me. I’ll end this war because it’s my destiny.” he never did anything that childish. He became a hero because he was suppose to. Naruto became a hero because everything fell into his lap.

  35. Wow, this whole time I thought naruto can sense dark chakra because of his ability to use sage jutsu, which enables people to sense chakra from a distance, augmented by him using kurama’s chakra.

  36. @nss7 you just dont get it so im gonna breakdown everything worng in every paragraph;

    ” He accepted his defeat to Hashirama and wanted him to kill him. Not necessarily revenge. It was a glorious death that Hashirama refuse to give him. Madara only suggested a vengeful way to help resolve the bond between him and Hashirama only because Hashirama refuse to give him a glorious death in the first place.” Glorious death? Hashirama literally told madara he could stand by his side and together they could figure out a way to make things work for everyone!
    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/36848288/18
    Glorious death? Madara has refused time and again to be willing to work with the first after the first literally spared his life and offered to talk thigns thru… thats just stubborness and of course he awknowledgs the first was better…. madara was nothing compared to the first hokage and yet he still wouldnt listen to reason or be willing to try and talk things out yet. Not only that but he literally told the first sure ill be willing to trust u if u kill youself or your bro… umm madara how can u trust the first hokage if he were to kill himself? That makes literally zero sense… o ill trust u but only after u off yourself? Just stupid.

    ” However when it comes to creating the leaf village, The Senju did a poor job in their treatment of the Uchiha clan. Uchihas may have lost, but it was the Senju that provoked the Uchihas in the direction of rebel and war. There was some mistrust and isolation that took place before the police force was set up for the Uchihas. Before that system was set up, the Uchihas were already being slowly pushed back into a smaller area within the village. This all took place when Hashirama was still Hokage. If the Uchihas wasn’t pushed back and have to live in an isolated area, their clans would’ve mix genetically with other clans by meeting and mating with new people outside. Uchihas genetic resentment and their clan would’ve disappeared like the Senju did. But Hashirama and the Senju wrongly misstep continue to let the clan survive amongst themselves by trapping them, continuing their long history of hatred at the Senju.” Where exactly did it show that the uchiha deserved to be trusted? Can you show me one example in all the manga that shows that any uchiha during that time period was trustworthy? If u were to say the senju only had the first hokage thats still more than what the uchiha had to offer (not to mention having the strongest shinobi IN THAT TIME IN THE WORLD is not a bad person to be on your side and not only that THAT POWERFUL SHINOBI WANTED TO TALK THINGS OUT WITH YOU). Not only that we r not sure the the first hokage was alive when the uchihas were being “isolated”. If you can show me a reference in the manga where the first was shown to be alive than id like to see it. Not only that but u keepsaying hashirama had missteps.. SHOW ME AN EXAMPLE OF THE FIRST HOKAGE MAKING A MISSTEP AND MISTREATING THE UCHIHA. If you answer this post back I want the response to start with an example of the FIRST HOKAGE MISTREATING THE UCHIHA.

    Ill skip the naruto has everything fallen into his lap and such cause thats somewhat true.

    “Naruto gets blessed with unique abilities that no other jinchurriki can do. One of those abilities is being able to sense evil presence which no body else in the history of the Naruto manga series has done before or can do. Naruto is the ONLY one that can sense dark chakra. ONLY ONE. Where did that even come from? Never mentioned that evil can be sense but apparently Naruto or his tailed beast Kurama can do it out of their asses. Killer Bee and Hachibi can’t do half the things Naruto can do even though they been partnered for a much longer time period. All these new abilities and set up of war was as if everything was place for Naruto to become a hero by default. To add fuel to the fire, Naruto even brags on and on about destiny and being picked for the role like he’s some spoiled brat who thinks too highly of themselves in a situation that matters most. who would want an immature and ignorant spoiled brat representing them in leading the war against their opponent?” Naruto is blessed with unique abilities cause unlike the other jinchurikii for 1) he has the nine tails, the most powerful tailed beast alive outside the juubi 2) his new form is created by literally melding his chakra with the unrestrained chakra of the nine tails (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Tailed_Beast_Control explains how they become the tailed beast form but it is different in that they trade certain amounts of their own chakra while naruto literally melds his own and the kyuubis together. 3) Naruto can sense emotions cause KURAMA can sense emotions and evil intent and by combining with him he is able to use kuramas power (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kurama under abilities). Naruto brags like a kid cause o wait NARUTO IS A KID still. As much power as he has gained and as powerful as he is he still has bouts with arrogance but lets be real when does he show this attitude when fighting a stronger opponent?everytime he has faced someone powerful he has mentioned how strong and skilled they are and his stubborness is what makes him stronger. He brags cause he knows as long as he has his friends behind him he knows he can win… Madara brags and makes demands/ultimatums to someone far superior to him and yet naruto is selfish and arrogant and a brat while madara is honorable and justified in his remarks? yea i dont think so.

    “This is even the first time where a war was this disturbingly dependent on only one person to save the day. Not even the 4th Hokage was showered with this much importance. The 4th Hokage never to have said to be the one that ended the war on his own or have so many people dependent on him to win. Not to mention, the 4th Hokage didn’t talk non sense and go off saying things like “I’ll tackle on this war by myself and put all the burden on my shoulder” or “I can do it. Believe in me. I’ll end this war because it’s my destiny.” he never did anything that childish. He became a hero because he was suppose to. Naruto became a hero because everything fell into his lap.” You wanna know y the fourth wasnt showered with as much importance? HE HAD THE FREAKING THIRD HOKAGE TO HELP HIM OUT. Name one ninja in the current narutoverse who is on the level of naruto that is at the battlefield right now… dont worry i can wait. Meanwhile the fourth hokage had the third freaking hokage to handle things while he was off fighting tobi. If naruto was off fighting say tobi or even madara 1v1 who would step up to face the juubi/other remaining villain by themself of even have a chance to? O thats right no one. SO naruto is depended on cause frankly he is the only one with the power right now to even stand a chance. And lets be real the first hokage is doing something similar to naruto’s behavior of I put the burden on myself… after all Hashirama feels like he is the only one who can help madara and u know what? hes right and naruto is right too… naruto is the only shinobi in the alliance who has the power to do this and he knows it… its not his fault he realizes that he is the one thats goin to have to carry the brunt of the load and thats not necessarily a bad trait.

  37. @nss7, the theory you have about the Senju getting their genetics spread out and thus we have a mix of clan breeding makes sense, but there is no proof that this happened. Sorry, but this has kishi not paying attention to the plot or having any backed up evidence of the Senju clan, heck we were introduced to the Senju clan around the half way mark of Naruto.

    The fact still remains that the Uchiha most of them are all after some sort of revenge, ie Madara wanting revenge for his brother, Sasuke wanting revenge against every one because that’s his career, but we don’t know how he will turn out. But look at this way, the Uchiha always mention how they are mistreated and how they are this and that, well if you are mistreated so much, than why not just leave and make your own village. Look at Orochimaru, when he was slapped in the face for not getting the 4th seat as Hokage, he up and left and created his own village, sure he was evil but he said to himself “well if you don’t want me as your leader than I’d make my own village” the fact still remains that most of the Uchiha are bent or are on the road of revenge, which I think is one of the main theme of this manga, that either Naruto or Sasuke will finally stop the Uchiha on the road of revenge.

    Again your bashing Naruto because he is the main character. That is unfair, the fact is that the main character is supposed to be the most powerful character in the story because the story or plot is only as strong as the main character. Now I know where there are some cases where the main character is not the strongest character. There are mangas out there that have the main character start out as the weakest and than he or she ends up the strongest. This is the case of Naruto, he started out as a failure but now the whole Ninja world is dependent on him because we are at the end of the series and the main character needs to be shown as the main guy, the centerpiece, where everything depends and surrounds around him and his story, because this manga is called NARUTO. Also, you can’t compare the 4th to Naruto because they both come from hugely different backgrounds. The 4th is far more mature and experienced than Naruto is, in case you have not forgotten Naruto is only 16, and I remember when I was at that age I did some childish stuff, and if I had powers like Naruto, hell yeah I am going to be arrogant and childish and think I am powerful because its the age the process of growing up.

  38. @token, I humbly bow down to TOKEN, well I thought I should rebuttal to nss7, but you just took it head on and made perfectionism facts and proofs. you take the case, all hail the glorious Token. Good job man.

  39. @Token
    What does your arguement have to do with the arguement about Uchihas accepting defeat to a stronger opponent? The arguement was on the lines of why Uchihas didn’t accept defeat to someone who was better or superior? The answer was that Madara did accept losing to Hashirama and awknowledge that Hashirama was better. That Is an Uchiha accepting defeat to a superior opponent. The peace treaty that Hashirama propose has nothing to do with the arguement. He propose it several times which would mean a tie, truce, and draw between the two clans. That has nothing to do with the question that was posed about Uchihas accepting defeat to someone that was stronger.

    Naruto was a great main character that was suppose to succeed as the main hero. However, the same can’t be said about how his character was displayed in the 4th war. He had way too much importance that no other good guys have ever gotten in the series. Naruto was the only shinobi in the war to have any value. The example of the 4th Hokage having the 3rd is not a good comparison. Of course the 3rd was helpful. The 4th was still stronger. Naruto has Killer Bee. Killer Bee has shown to be almost Naruto equal in power. Their tailed beast bomb have almost the same amount of destructive power. Yet, Naruto is the only one that played any importance. Everything flew into place for him to succeed. Not because he was suppose to. Same with all the good guys was set up to fight their old foes (Edo Tensei) that they once defeat. All of them were set up to win because they already have prior knowledge or defeated them once before. In Naruto’s case, Naruto is Supposingly one of the few wind users that exist in the entire 5 nations combined even though wind is one of the 5 major elements. Sensing evil is another rarity that only Naruto combine with Kurama processes but the manga have never hinted towards Naruto or Kyuubi to have possess this ability before. Sensing evil chakra is also a plot hole because no one else besides Naruto can use this ability. That means no one in the history of Naruto can sense a plant like Zetsu if he hid himself by replicating other people. Any strong ninja would’ve already been assassinated and killed easily by Zetsu hiding himself amongst the clans and villagers before this war. Which again creates another plot hole of why Tobi did not hide Zetsu in multiple villages to have shinobis killed undetected instead of waiting for Naruto to master chakra control along with Kurama? That’s like asking to lose on purpose. He planned this for years and never thought of that? It’s like giving Naruto a free ride to win. That what makes Naruto powers glitch. Zetsu could’ve taken over the world at anytime and killed people in their sleep while disguise as their love ones. ONLY Naruto can detect these things which it is set up perfectly for him to become a hero by defeating these Zetsu fakes. Too much importance.

    Can’t use Hashirama as an example for putting the burden on his shoulder. He has done similar things, but Naruto and Hashirama are completely two vastly different shinobis. Hashirama never speaks non sense nor does him convincing Madara to join have anything to do with being arrogant or saying things similar to Naruto? Can anyone imagen Hashirama speaking like Naruto? “I did it because I was destine to do it. It was destiny. Only I can end this war. I’ll do it alone and will never let anyone be burden by the lost from this war. Believe it believe it believe it Believe it BEEELIIIEVE IT!” Hashirama wouldn’t have speak those words with selfishness over dealing with the war nor would he think so highly of himself to take on the whole war on his own. The comparison between Naruto and Hashirama shouldn’t even have been brought up because of those differences.

    @Jdogg
    The proof is the Uzumaki. They’re the living proof that the Senju has breeded with other clans to create clans like the Uzumaki.

  40. @nss7 im only gonna say a couple things cause u still didnt answer what the first hokage did wrong and u continually go around it As for hashirama he doesnt speak nonsense cause HE IS A ADULT…. I already explained this in my response to your long paragraph. NAruto is a kid hes gonna have bouts of arrogance and u know what thats fine hes just a kid. If u read my response… which im sure u didnt cause u didnt catch this but here is a response to whyi said they r similar

    ” And lets be real the first hokage is doing something similar to naruto’s behavior of I put the burden on myself… after all Hashirama feels like he is the only one who can help madara and u know what? hes right and naruto is right too… naruto is the only shinobi in the alliance who has the power to do this and he knows it… its not his fault he realizes that he is the one thats goin to have to carry the brunt of the load and thats not necessarily a bad trait.?
    What this means is The first hokage is trying to do all this pretty much by himself cause his clan doesnt necessarily follow his beliefs full heartedly so the first hokage is shouldering all of the burden of trying to make this work. Its not the exact same thing but I would like to see where I even said it was the same thing.

    And dont compare killerbee to naruto in terms of power…. he isnt in narutos league right now. At least back than the third and fourth could be considered comparable in strength. Naruto and B have a larger gap in power between them in terms of power right now.

    As for the whole accepting defeat thing… Madara clearly didnt accept defeat cause he fights the first hokage at the valley of the end even after all the times the first hokage won… enough said.

  41. Btw not sure how sensing emotions is a plothole… http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c505/10.html Kisame aknowledged that it must be because he is the nine tails host in control of the kyuubi… and just because he is the only one that can use that means its a hack and plothole? Sometimes its nice to see someone have a unique ability… getting tired of seeing these rare abilities being given to everyone under the sun so its nice naruto can sense what other sensor types cant. And here is an link to explain the whole negative sensing thing which kurama used actually a while ago
    http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Negative_Emotions_Sensing

  42. I don’t understand how sensing negative emotion is a plothole.

    Kurama was said to gather where human malice festers. He preys on hate because he himself a giant mass of malevolence. It plays right into his field of abilities.

  43. @nss7, the Uzumaki are a clan of their own that allied with themselves with the Senju, they were a clan feared just like the Uchiha and Senju, maybe not for their power, but because of their sealing ability. The only ‘breeding’ we have seen is that Hashirama chose a Uzumaki as a wife, does not mean that the Uzumaki are a branch of the Senju.

  44. It was said the uzumakis are close relative of the senju,cant remember where it was said but it was definitely said.

    @token
    the cockiness and pride in naruto is so undeniable, i tought it would be obvious.it isn’t childish talking its pure pride.look at other main characters lets say Gon Freesc from the hunterxhunter anime.very much like naruto just as childish, even acted by the same voice actress.
    And besides naruto isn’t the strongest character and he and bee aren’t so far apart from bee in terms of strength

    @nss7
    the arguement is hopeless madara is a pussy compared to hashirama case closed.

    Did anyone stop to think it may not have been a 1 on 1 battle,tobirama and the others looked like they loined the fight

  45. @jdogg
    The Uzumaki and the Senju are distant blood relatives, not simply because hashirama married an uzumaki. Obito and Madara on seperate moments shed a little light to this when explaining Madara giving nagato his rinnegan eyes.

  46. Just to add a little more proof of kurama’s sensing abilities

    http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-309-page-3.html

    He does have some sensing ability.

  47. @sannin how can u say naruto and B are close in power? Naruto has literally fully harnessed the kyuubis power more than B has with the eight tails , naruto has acheived a form never seen, melded his chakra with the kyuubis which again no jinchuriki had ever done before (thus his power must be exponential) and not only that naruto is literally the fastest living ninja right now (although with his dad now revived its debatable if naruto even now is faster than his dad )

  48. it was stated that the 9-tails power is uncomparable to the previous 8 befoire him. the 9 alone has comparable powers to all the 1-8 tails combined.

    before, when Naruto hasn’t fully harness the powers of Kurama, he was inferior to Bee in termsof power. But now that he and Kurama are working together, Bee and 8-tails are not in the same league anymore.

    So yea, that’s one power-up for Naruto.

  49. @token
    “Naruto has literally fully harnessed the kyuubis power more than B has with the eight tails ”

    “fully harness”? really? And Bee has what? partially harnessed the hachibi’s power.?what can naruto do that bee can do?yeah right, NOTHING!….(Except the whole sensing hax)
    “naruto has acheived a form never seen, melded his chakra with the kyuubis which again no jinchuriki had ever done before (thus his power must be exponential)”

    well butter naruto up and call him a biscuit..a form never seen before?where did that come from,naruto has a tailed beast cloak just like everybody else…. except his have a secondary function of been a torch in the dark amongst other things.and WHY???..because his kishi’s love child, not because his freaking exponetial!
    “naruto is literally the fastest living ninja right now”

    ooh please…… i doubt thats true just because he luckily dodge one punch from the raikage doesn’t make him fast overall.ok lets tackle it from this angle:
    Naruto goes to the battlefield with all the whole “i’m faster than raikage” and then runs into itachi.shouldn’t everyone have problem with his speed, kinda how sasuke had problem with the raikage?.Guess not. itachi kicked his ass and played it over to nagato who royally WHOOPPED! his ass.and then to Tobi’s sha-rinegan army who tossed his SWIFT ASS! like a ball.all this time i was like “huh? where’d all the speed go”
    as for the 4th and naruto..naruto has quick happy feet while the 4th teleports…,they are two completely different things of different class,don’t compare

  50. @sannin Bee has not fully harnessed the power of the eight tails…. no jinchuriki before has been able to do what naruto has done with kurama together. Not only as shykss said true (the nine tails is stronger than any tailed beast before it by itself) Show me a jinchuriki that has melded the tailed beasts power with their own… that has never been done before so no no one else has fully harnessed the power like naruto has. Not only that both things u mentioned (involving nagato/itachi etc.) was naruto in nine tails chakra mode (his weaker mode), not the tailed beast mode. In case u need a explaination on the difference http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Naruto_Uzumaki's_Jinch%C5%ABriki_Forms and go down to the nine tail chakra mode and tailed beast mode. )
    And here is a explanation on how they change into tailed beast mode
    “http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Tailed_Beast_Control” and in there it states that to acheive the tailed beast mode they have to agree on the amount of chakra to continually EXCHANGE while “http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Tailed_Beast_Mode#Tailed_Beast_Mode” Naruto and kurama dont talk of the exchange rate of chakra. THey talk about literally melding it together, something no other jinchuriki has done or does do so yes naruto and kurama have fully harnessed everything they can do together while Bee has not shown to be able to meld his chakra with the eight tails, and I would guess if u meld the chakra together it would be more powerful than just exchanging chakras.
    http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Minato_Namikaze Go down to taijutsu. Minato was fast and not just because of flying thunder god. He was considered to be the fastest shinobi that ever lived… not teleporter. http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v57/c541/8.html Raikage aknowledges that minato was faster than him… if he minato was only fast cause of his seals im sure the raikage wouldnt have considered him faster. after all three konoha guards can perform the flying thunder god tech so does that mean they r among the fastest in naruto?

  51. Are u kidding me..naruto is for sure the strongest in this series.definitely faster than the raikage,the raikage admitted to that himself.he’s so fast he can best
    1)hashirama vs naruto=i bet naruto can best hashirama……… ohh forgot that 1000 BITCH SLAP SUMMON!!!.damn, i wouldn’t face that if i had superpowers, thats sucide,even flash(wally west)cant run past that.
    Naruto isn’t in mega magnum league i guess Big magnum
    Madara=ya madara would definitely have an ass whooping session…oh that’s right naruto was having problem with just the rinnegan,combined with that big ass perfect sussano’o.guess madara would be doing the ass whooping.
    3)Tobirama=yeah! The rat face gonna get some.oops he has FTG.just as fast
    4)Minato=since his fights only last for a minute giving naruto a minute or should i say 45 seconds 5)third hokage=i wonder if he will stand his ground with that his silly monkey.what was his name again?…
    6)5 kage=only madara can live through those badass combo
    Kakashi/guy comrade combo=7th gate gai+MS kakashi=naruto toast=enough said
    7)sakura=unbeatable crying bitch*pukes*
    8)hentai girls=WOW! faster than the yellow flash
    9)sasuke=debatable
    guess naruto isn’t the only top dog around

  52. Nice review Cc and J.
    Just read the chapter a downer giving my pre-read prediction and the uchiha’s where treated like dirt…..COOOOOL.hehehehehehehe…..serves them right, considering the much attention kishi’s been giving them.madara lying on the ground like a baby was epic(thought his back couldn’t touch the ground),that jus made the chapter

  53. @token
    “What this means is The first hokage is trying to do all this pretty much by himself cause his clan doesnt necessarily follow his beliefs full heartedly so the first hokage is shouldering all of the burden of trying to make this work. Its not the exact same thing but I would like to see where I even said it was the same thing.” Read the last sentence to this paragraph you wrote. It agrees with my point.

    @token & shykss
    Of course the 9 tailed beast is incomparable to the previous 1-8 tails. It has more tails than all of them. Hachibi only has one tail less than the Kyuubi. In their full beast mode form, the Kyuubi and Hachibi are almost identical in terms of power. Their tailed beast bomb has almost the same explosive and destructive powers. http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/610/12 The only difference with melding chakra with their tailed beast is that a shinobi like Naruto gets unique powers in lesser forms from the Kyuubi that the Hachibi can’t do for Killer Bee. However, when the tailed beast is in full form, the Hachibi not too far from the Kyuubi in terms of power that has been perfectly illustrated by the link I gave you above.

    “…and in there it states that to acheive the tailed beast mode they have to agree on the amount of chakra to continually EXCHANGE while… Naruto and kurama dont talk of the exchange rate of chakra. THey talk about literally melding it together, something no other jinchuriki has done or does do so yes naruto and kurama have fully harnessed everything they can do together while Bee has not shown to be able to meld his chakra with the eight tails, and I would guess if u meld the chakra together it would be more powerful than just exchanging chakras.” Killer bee and Naruto use to go through the same process of exchanging chakras with their tailed best due to the lack of trust. Now that they both have bonded with their tailed beast, that process no longer takes place. You keep mentioning how Naruto has harness his tailed beast and Killer Bee hasn’t. Killer Bee has harness the powers of the Hachibi. Harness means that you can control something. Killer Bee has control over his tailed beast and their chakras are somewhat melded. Not to the extent of Naruto and Kyuubi, but it is still melded to some degree. http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/519/10 The link provides the info how the Hachibi or anyone in their basic beast mode, they USE to go through a ‘”chakra trade” phase.’ Not anymore.

  54. @nss7 I dont understand what you r saying in the first paragraph. I literally said the first hokage is shouldering the burden of trying to do stuff himself similar to how naruto is shouldering the burden of having to do most of everything, I also said it was similar not exactly the same thing but that proves your point? Ok…..
    The eight tails and kyuubi are almost similar in poweR? That link u gave literally has nothing to do with which is more powerful. Yea they both can do bijuu bombs… and? Nothing about there power is mentioned nor shown in that link either.
    Lesser forms of the kyuubi? When naruto melds his chakra he gets his uber powered tailed beast mode….. When exchanging chakra that is when he had the whole nine tails mode. When he melded the chakra together is when he had the tailed beast mode. Killer Bee still uses the exchange process (or as far as ive seen there is no reference to bee changing this process while naruto has shown to go beyond that to melding their chakra. If u can show me where it says Bee melds his chakra like naruto does I would like to see it) but naruto has moved on past that. Yes both naruto and Bee do have control since it requires it to go into tailed beast mode. But you say Bee and his beast have melded their chakras somewhat but its never been stated in the manga and if it has been a link would be appreciated. Btw one last thing in terms of power
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c608/9.html
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c608/10.html
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c608/15.html
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c608/16.html
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c608/17.html
    Both naruto and Bee were trapped by wood jutsu which was draining them and can suppress tailed beasts.. ill let u guess which of the two were powerful enough to escape on their own and help out the other jinchuriki and kakashi at the same time
    @gentle kind of a random rant dont u think lol

  55. @nss7 a couple more examples of narutos power with the kyuubi;
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c571/3.html repelled everything using just his speed.
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c571/5.html with jsut a shockwave he repelled 5 tailed beasts in their full forms.
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c571/12.html five tailed beasts combined power into one bijuu bomb, naruto vs a 5 tailed beast power bijuu bomb, naruto repelled it away from everyone while bee is encircled in a ball protecting himself

  56. @token
    I’ll drop the comparison that you made with Hashirama and Naruto.

    Killer Bee has melded his chakra with his Hachibi to some lesser extent than Naruto. He can grow octopus legs out from his skin. it’s completely attach to his body and he can sprout it out like wings if he wanted to. His hands can turn into the Hachibi hands, whcih he use during his battle against the Raikage. The Hachibi skin is practically attach to his. http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120401112158/naruto/images/c/c5/Killer_Bee_Demonstrates_Control.jpg
    Their chakra and skin are combined.

  57. @token
    Hachibi couldn’t rebel because he use up his chakra and fought in his tailed beast mode longer than Naruto has against those 5 tailed beast. He wasn’t given the chance to his tailed beast bomb against those 5 tailed beast for being all tangled up.

    Naruto escaped Madara wood jutsu because he use shadow clone. That doesn’t prove anything powerwise. Killer Bee did the same exact thing against Sasuke and escape through the Hachibi tail.

  58. Unknown: (-_-) *realizes he’s out of popcorn*
    *went inside the pantry to get fruit gushers*

    (^_^)
    Never mind me nss7 an token, please continue.

  59. @nss7 that picture u gave has nothing to do with melding chakra. read the links i gave in regards to the tail beast transformations again… its never been mentioned that killerbee melded his chakra with the eight tails. The thing u are refering to is partial transformation; http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Killer_B%27s_Jinch%C5%ABriki_Forms and that is because killerbee can control the eight tails has nothing to do with melding chakra etc. So the eight tails used up his chakra against those same opponents and naruto when he perfected his against those same five opponents was basicalyl handling them by himself… thats still a power difference. And you are comparing what naruto did against madara to what killer bee did to sasuke? yea once again differnt leagues there. Not only that in your mention of the shadow clone the clone was used to protect kakashi while naruto himself went to help bee… naruto was caught in the exact same attack as Bee and yet naruto literally broke out of it and caught susannos blade by himself and protected B who even at the end of that chapter is still bound and hadnt broken free yet

  60. @token
    Naruto beat the 5 bijuus because he got knowledge from the 4 tailed Son Goku. It’s a similar situation with fighting Nagato. Jiraiya lost because he didn’t have prior knowledge on Nagato’s secret. Naruto took down Nagato for having the benefit of leaf ninjas telling him information ahead of time that was crucial in beating Nagato. Killer Bee didn’t have the information provided by Son Goku to aid him in the fight that Naruto gotten.

  61. Prior information? The examples I gave had nothing to do with prior info. What is son goku tell him that the tailed beast did bijou bombs and stuff? Naruto had help with the rods but the examples I gave was to show narutos power didnt really have anything to do with beating them.

  62. @token
    I’m telling how Naruto beat the 5 bijuus. Killer Bee never had the opportunity to use his tailed beast bomb against the 5 bijuu tailed beast bomb. The example and link I gave you earlier with Kyuubi and Hachibi both shooting tailed beast bomb at the Juubi shows that they’re close in terms of power level. Hachibi only one tail weaker. Not too far from the Kyuubis.

  63. Please explain how the eight tails and nine tails shooting bijou bombs is a sign that they r equal in power…. The three tails, four tails etc can do a bijou bomb but that doesn’t mean they r close in power at all…. I may be missin something so ur gonna have to explain how that link u showed means te eight and nine tails r similar in power

  64. And bee did have a chance to use the bomb against the 5 tailed beasts
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c571/11.html as you can see bee is right next to naruto.
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c571/12.html naruto is the only one firing. Bee could have helped but he didnt and naruto did just fine without him

  65. @token
    If Bee were to fire, it would’ve naturalize the blast the same way Naruto have done it. If you want to talk power level again then a simple math will solve all the problem. Use theirs he number of tails to determine their power levels. Hachibi only has one less tail. He is not too far from Kyuubi in terms of strength, which I repeatly have stress about it. The manga had already said, the more tail, the stronger the bijuu. The number
    Of tails between the Kyuubi and Hachibi is not too far apart. Power level wise, it indicates that they’re close to one another.

  66. The tail thing for one was stated by kurama but its never been official. And that link u showed had nothin to do with tails but u said that the pic showed how equal in power they looked. And u said the eight tails didnt have a chance to do anything against the bijou bomb but he clearly could have. But as I showed naruto showed more than enough power to do it himself and yet we have never seen be able to handle a blast of that magnitude on his own

  67. And btw kurama right now is without the yin chakra… So it’s at about what half power right now? So even with half power naruto is more powerful with kurama than bee is

  68. @token
    Your going too far out of the realm of the arguement. Naruto current Kurama does not have the other half, so Kurama and eight tails are close in power.

  69. Brief interruption, didn’t Mito Uzumaki have the power to sense evil, and she unlocked this power while being the host of the 9-tails. Thought Obito mentioned this when he heard of Naruto’s sensing ability.

    Let the debate continue.

  70. @nss7 yea just something I threw out there lol. And even so I haven’t seen killerbee exhibit the power like i showed before with naruto… Their powers aren’t half as close as u think they r . I’ve given examples showing the extent of power naruto has since achieving his complete beast mode…. Maybe u could show me some of bees full power? (And if u show him against sasuke that will just make me laugh)

  71. Token: it’s like trying to straighten a wet thread…. or flogging a dead horse.

    nss: it was already stated that Kurama’s power is equivalent of combined powers of 1-8 beasts. Juubi’s power is equivalent of combined 1-9 tailed beasts. Even if you said that 8 is one tail less and is ‘not far off’ from 9-tailed, in terms of power distribution, hachibi is still less powerful than kyuubi.
    Bee and hacbibi seems more powerful than naruto was because they had been willing partners much longer than naruto and kurama was. and now that naruto had the acceptance of kurama, of course their combo has become that more effective = powerful.
    and it’s not like naruto has been buddies with kurama forever. they only came to an agreement recently when Bee taught him how to harness the kyuubi’s power.

  72. @token
    Its no doubt naruto is the strongest of the two.i mean hey he’s the main character.kishi is biased when it comes to him, so he makes him perform all the saves and showoff panels.
    The arguement lies on how far apart they are in strength… i mean fighting strength now, not other hax).sure naruto is stronger(chakra wise and all) but i wont say out of Bee’s league.(out of league is compared to shukaku)
    The melding and exchanging of chakra..i don’t see how that adds to naruto “fighting” strength.he and Bee are still allowed the same level of chakra acess to their bijuu.the only thing is he(naruto can give out chakra)

    and that madara binding wood tech,was only escaped because of the clone also naruto shrinked down due to it absorbing his chakra.unlike killerbee that madara was literally facing and his bijuu mode is flesh not chakra.if killer bee had poofed back to normal he would have escaped.

  73. @shykss
    Logically, the theory of the 9 tails being as strong as the previous 1-8 tail combine doesn’t apply in this arguement. Kurama only has half of his chakra. Naruto only been sealed with half. In theory, the half is in no shape to be so far from the Hachibi strength wise that would put Naruto in another league.

    @Sanin
    Strongly agree. Naruto and Bee have the most chakra reserve amongst the allied force.

  74. Therefore, they’re not too far a part in terms of strength.

  75. Honestly at this point it is like flogging a dead horse lol… I’ve given examples showing how strong narutos power is, I’ve described in detail the differences between bee and narutos tailed beast mode, I’ve given links for all of these and all I get in return is opinions and links that have nothing to do with showing the differences in strength. I’ve given links of situations where both naruto and bee were in the exact same bind, I’ve given examples of them both facing off against the 5 tailed beasts with naruto positively owning all 5 even given the fact that he just perfected his tailed beast mode. Not much more I can at really. Would be nice to get some links and stuff to counter my arguments but haven’t seen any this far :-/

  76. @token
    We already know Naruto is stronger than Bee. The original arguement was that you made was that Naruto did not have anyone along side him that can serve as a partner or an equal while the 4th had the 3rd. I’ll like to tell you that the 4th did not have the third assistance in most cases. One, all the flashbacks shows the 4th venturing alone or aiding weaker troops. Two, the 3rd was heading towards retirement to give up his title to the 4th. Third, the 3rd is no where near as equalling the 4th in a one to one battle. Apply this to the current war and Naruto has Bee on his side that can fight on equal terms against the villains. No one else on the allied force comes close to being a strong of a partner as Killer Bee is to Naruto. Killer Bee is the closest person to matching Naruto in terms of strength even when Naruto is stronger than Bee. There power level is not too far a part that would put Naruto in a completely different league then Bee.

  77. The third hokage isn’t close to the fourth?!? Man I read your post and there was so much wrong with what u said I’m literally tired just thinking about having to correct it all… Lets just say the power between the 3rd and 4th is alot closer than naruto to bee

  78. http://www.mangapanda.com/93-126-3/naruto/chapter-121.html oro himself acknowledges he was considered strong as he says its pitiful how old age has defeated him…. The same old man that managed to fight off two hokage edo tensais and cause oro to retreat. To say the third doesn’t compare to the fourth is laughable since even oros enemies respect him and called him god of shinobi. Debatable who would win between the third an fourth but to say either way its lopside is just ignorant of facts

  79. Btw do u remember who was fighting the mine tails while minato was off fighting Tobi? O that’s right the third hokage. And the third was handling a nine tails AT FULL POWER. Not only that the third hokage lived to be a very old man….. Besides the other old man kage the third hokage must have been quite skilled to be able to live that long. Not only that but the Third replaced the fourth once he died…. Most likely meaning no other shinobi in the whole village could compare to either the fourth or even the third is his old age

  80. @token
    Naruto and Bee partnership is like Ay and Bee. As a child, Bee is inferior to Ay and Ay can probably whoop his ass all day around if he wanted to. But it didn’t change the fact that no one other than Bee could become Ay’s partner because their strength were equal. Naruto and Bee are the same way. They’re like bread and butter.

  81. And btw in the first databook the third was considered to be the strongest hokage. I still debate tht but just goes to show that both the Third and fourth r considered to be among the strongest shinobi in history…. To be on that short list the differences in power isn’t as dramatic as u claim

  82. The fourth would own the 3rd hokage. All he has to do is throw a kunai then use teleportation. Game over.

  83. What does the relationship between a and b have to do with this argument at all? Naruto and bee’s relationship isn’t bread and butter cause they aren’t a tag team like raikage and b. those two were a tag team and complimented each others power but their relationship doesn’t really fit in this argument…. Again using a argument that doesn’t realy apply

  84. Yea nss7 cause it would be that easy. I don’t even need to counter that argument…. It’s silly enough without me having to say anything

  85. Third only beat the first and the second edo because they weren’t at full strength. Orochimaru admitted this a few chapters back. If the 1st and 2nd fought at full strength during the attack on Konoha, the 3rd would’ve been a goner.

  86. Lol of course at full power he wouldn’t. The first is the second most powerful shinobi ever but my point was at an old age he still did a good job against two quality opponents. Had nothing to do with facing first an second vs third as much as showing the third was proficient enough to hold his own even as a old man. Btw about the teleportation thing and than minato winning instantly http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/120/14 . If he knew all the Justus of the village I’m 100% sure he knows counters to them

  87. @token
    That is nothing. More knowledge doesn’t neccessarily them stronger. http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/524/14 Kakashi copied over 1000 Jutsus, but primarily sticks to lightning base attacks like Chidori. He doesn’t use most of the 1000 Jutsus he has copied because most of those Jutsus drains about the same amount or more chakra than Chidori, but doesn’t come close to the damage that Chidori can cause. Look back when Kakashi copied a jutsu from Zabuza and use it against him. The jutsu wiped out all his chakra and didn’t even killed Zabuza in the process. Chidori wouldn’t have use as much chakra and would’ve KO Zabuza with one shot.
    http://www.mangapanda.com/93-20-15/naruto/chapter-15.html

    Knowing more jutsu doesn’t mean anything. Third got whooped badly by the dumb down versions of he 1st and 2nd. His knowledge didn’t do a thing. He only use 3-5 Jutsus during the whole fight.

  88. Something about the flashbacks doesn’t add up….

    I’m betting madara was pissed that his brother lost and took the eyes of the poor guy. And then blamed hashirama to gain the advantage.

    I also thought the whole… Kill yourself/your brother/your dog/your house plants/your membership to the gym… Etc. That was pretty lame.

    Hashirama should have punted him. How do these battles fit into the epic battles… And madara pushing around the tsukage…

  89. @nss7 again with stuff not relevant to our argument. The example u have against zabuza is hardy relevant cause 1)was ridiculously far back, 2) we r talking about the third who was what probably in his 70’s and comparing him to a ninja who while gifted isn’t in any hokages class outside the fifth 3) te third had knowledge of every jutsu in the village of konoha and that point was brought up to show that the third was beyond what Kakashi was/is. Kakashi is a copycat ninja who was never credited with knowing EVERY JUTSU in konoha 4) the Kakashi example u used was for us to see that Kakashi was a copy cat ninja and used the sharingan to his benefit. Unlike Kakashi the third hokage can use whatever jutsu he wants cause he has strong chakra reserves to use them and knows which would work best. 5) the third was whooped? Go look at that fight again. The third hokage sealed two summons at once and had enough knowledge to know that although he couldn’t kill oro he made it so oro was useless for months. The third hokage was OLD and yet u act like that was horrible what he did against them. Imagine what the third was like when he was in his prime like minato was or the first/second

  90. and the third didnt use alot of jutsus against them? :
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v14/c120/2.html
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v14/c120/5.html
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v14/c120/8.html
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v14/c122/5.html
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v14/c122/11.html
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v14/c122/13.html
    those jutsus are teh ones used against the two hokages alone. by my count thats six for just against them.He also used http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v13/c117/17.html before the summoning. Thats 7 jutsus used 6 of which were different styles/elements. Yea the third didnt do much at all against the edo summons

  91. On the Token v nss7 on “Third versus Fourth” difference in strength I’d have to give it to Token; the Third got old yeah but he still brought it and was by no means lacking in power or skill.

  92. “The fourth would own the 3rd hokage. All he has to do is throw a kunai then use teleportation. Game over.” hehehe, someone’s taking the piss now 🙂

  93. Oh fuck i missed the whole damn arguement!! Anyway DBZ fans…… SS3 Goku got the karate chop!

  94. I’m pumped for the new Dbz movie. Bills found the Super Saiyan off switch

  95. I can only imagine the look off vegetas face if he sees that fight…..

  96. Lol goku got made to look like a bitch!! Im liking bills character a little more now, im hoping vegeta gets an upgrade in this movie, he reallyyyyy needs it otherwise he’s gonna get left behind almost like fodder like piccolo

  97. What a lot of ppl are forgetting about Madara was that all of his brothers were killed by the Senju Clan.. so it’s not safe to say that he was really going along with their friendship or was he until his father and brother gave him the same mission as Hashirama

  98. @naruto it’s clear he did value hashiramas as a friend. Not only did he warm hashirama about the ambush but he gained the sharingan after saying they were no longer friends, showing just how much he was affected by losing the friendship

  99. AND WE’RE OFFFFFFF…………NEW NARUTO CHAPTER IS READY AN OUT!

    http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/625

  100. Good chapter, awwww Maddi an Hashi’s bromance was cute, trust the jealous little brother to fuck it all up!!!!

  101. Lol, it’s more and more looking like Tobirama was singlehandedly responsible for the downfall of ninja society!

  102. Tobirama is a hater!!!! lol Bet he secretly fancied Madara himself lol,

    Oh one piece is out too and all i can say is Oda is fusing “Gladiator an Toystory” quite well an ive just realised something….Sanji looses almost as much blood as Zoro, check it out:

    http://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/703

  103. Oda is a genius…

    “You can go all out but you can’t reveal who you are” – is going to make for some very tasty haki based coliseum brawling!!!

    Haha, I hope this dancing chick makes either Robin or Violet jealous 🙂

    Bleach?

  104. I was thinking that too, there should be some juicy haki moves coming into play shortly! If anything “Violet” would make Nami jealous, Robin wouldnt care less coz she knows she is the mature queen on that ship!
    I wanna know who she wants Sanji to kill tho? and why do i get the feeling this relates to law crew being on zou! Zoro has gone fairy hunting an knowing him he’s gonna end up right in the middle of that arena!

  105. http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v69/c703/11.html

    Hilarity; this man is sweating, bleeding and breathing heavily in love all at the same time…. Oooooh Sanji-kun

  106. Its the Kubo shit babyyyyyyyyyyyyy Bleach legooo!

    http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/531

  107. @Tawuya

    I feel sorry for whoever does the washing on the sunny, sanji’s cum stained boxers an blood stained shirts must be a nightmare!!
    Aint gonna lie tho, Violet is wearing the fuck out of the dress!

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v69/c703/9.html

  108. @Tensa – HAHAHAHAHAHA agreed on both counts!

    Not sure how I feel about this Bleach chapter… after a week break I needed more 😦

  109. @Tawuya,

    Bleach has got me at miffed aswell, trust aizen to jump in the fight right when Isshin is ready to do some damage! Engetsu FTMFW!!!!!!!!

  110. good chapter I have to say. Madara I think is a tad bi polar but somewhat can see his point; tobirama as much as he seems like a douche alot of what he said isnt exactly wrong either. I mean lets be real was anything he said about them really that wrong or far off? There was one case where hashirama was wrong and that was to talk to madara and promise him stuff when he didnt have the right to. Tobirama is rational while hashirama was idealistic. And btw I found it interesting that for all the complaining about the uchiha being pushed into a corner outside the village or w/e Madara himself suggested it so tobirama did him a favor basically

  111. Ah man i just came across this blog and realized how far behind I am on Shippuden! I have some MAJOR catching up to do….

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