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The Strongest Ninja?

What makes a ninja the strongest? Theoretically any ninja could beat any opponent given that circumstances were tipped strongly in their favor. (for a match up like Ino vs. Nagato it would take a nearly impossible set up, but there is still a possibility.) So what increases their chances?

a. Defence: If your opponent can’t win you, you can’t lose. This is a theory of one of the world’s greatest wrestling coaches. The problem with it in the Naruverse is that there really is no “Ultimate Defence” in the Naruverse and only genin have been arogant enough to claim to have one. However we have seen time and again that these defences are eventually breached. If all you can do is defend, then it is only a matter of time before an opponent analyzes your weaknesses and strikes. This is true of Neji’s rotation/Byakugan, Gaara’s Sand, Madara’s Space/Time jutsu, and even (Sasuke’s) Sussano’o.

 

b. Offence: The idea here being the opposite of above. Destroy your opponent before they destroy you. Several, factors come into mainly divided into power and skill. Power is mainly in dealing with an opponent who is also coming at you with an attack, while Skill is more in getting through your opponent’s defences. Offence is an important factor in ninja battles but there is a major downside into going all in in offence, which is the possibility of mutual distruction much like the situation between the secon Mizukage and the second Tsuchikage where the Tsuchikage couldn’t protect himself dispite being able to level mountains in seconds. furthermore if your offencive abilities are purely based on either power or skill the imbalance will create situations where your abilities are useless such as Naruto vs. Madara (maybe not so much now that Naruto has the Kyubbi’s sensing abilities and speed, since he could possibly pull off a situation like Konan’s where Madara has no safe place to go, but I find that doubtfull) or Naruto vs. Shikimaru (where Shikmaru doesn’t really have a fair chance at victory).

 

c. Tactics: Like I said earlier, even Ino could defeat Nagato if the situation was right (say Nagato was paralyzed, drained of chakra, in the dark and had no paths to use). The trick to avoiding this is to never get into that situation. To look at your own abilities and search yourself for weaknesses so that you can improve. This is in my oppinion what makes Itachi much scarier than Nagato despite Nagato’s overwhelming power (If Itachi can pull of something close to Shisui’s genjutsu or some other end-run-jutsu like Sussano, he wins). It’s why Kabuto is so weak at the moment (He doesn’t know his own battle potential or any of it’s side effects and weaknesses. Leaving him open to things like Sasori being freed or Itachi turning on him). It’s why Naruto will eventually beat Madara (because Naruto keeps gaining allies while Madara keeps losing them).

 

d. Diversity/Uniqueness: If you only have one “go-to” jutsu it’s easy to counter because it’s the only thing your opponent has to worry about. Furthermore if you have a jutsu that is simple to understand, inventing a counter becomes easy. However the more complex a jutsu and the more varried your array of jutsu is the harder it is to counter.

 

So which ninja have these qualities, and which can be considered the strongest? What are their weaknesses?

Madara: He lacks in power and versatility. He has a strong defence but has to rely on others to attack (Kabuto, Gedo Mazo, Akatsuki, Sasuke, ect.) He is tactical in the short term, but continously makes enemies and loses allies. He lived in the shadows for years but still isn’t doing a great job of playing his enemies against one another. I think it is only a matter of time until someone figures him out compleatly.

 

Nagato: He has versatility, strength, a good defence, and a loyal companion. His only downfall seems to be his tactics. He can’t be defeated easily, but allows himself to be backed into a corrner multiple times. He also doesn’t seem to understand the depths of his own power, as shown in that Edo Tensei him was able to figure out a mode of mobility that his consious mind didn’t think of (his summons).

 

Itachi: His weakness is in his power. I think that otherwise he is the best in every aspect. This gives him the ability to exploit the weakness of any opponent he comes across as long as he doesn’t fight them head on, which he rarely does.

 

Jiriya: Versitile and Strong, Jiriya has only one weakness, tactics. His jutsu are highly situational, and seem random/improvised. He doesn’t really plan ahead, and just goes with the flow. Allowing his opponents to out manuver him with basic deception. He doesn’t know or cover his own weaknesses well enough that the best he can do is usually self destruction.

 

Naruto: Too much power, not enough skill. If you have a fighting style that can counter lots of shadow clones (basically and area attack jutsu) and Rasengan variations (either dodging or sufficient defence at the risk of being overpowered) then he isn’t much of a match. Usually he just relies on overpowering his opponents with raw power and endurance. If he gets desperate he may use trickery to create a power struggle, but it essentially comes down to the same. He is strong because his weakness is people countering with defencive jutsu, and given his endurance he has enough time to find their weak spot. He would do the worst against end-run jutsu that slip past his attack without considering it’s power and land an attack of moderate strength.

 

Kabuto: He doesn’t understand his strength. Much like Nagato, he allows things to happen that could have been avoided. I feel that he has lived in Orochimaru’s shadow too long, and fails to see the big plays for himself. By the time he realizes his full strength all his best summons will be permenantly sealed. His only ace-in-the-hole jutsu being the coffin he showed Madara, assuming it’s strong enough to take on everyone left after his Edo Tensei zombies are sealed.

 

I could analyze others but I will defer that to you with the question, who do you think is the strongest (most likely to win in any given situation)?

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128 Responses

  1. Nagato is the strongest all round ninja, his flaw in “tactics” as you say is a large over site, “Being backed into a corner is very rarely Nagato’s flaw…

    Six Paths of Pein proves this as, no one can actually truly beat it at full power, Nagato is perfect in defense against most enemies besides, Naruto Sage Mode and Jiraiya since their sensory abilities are at their peak. Fighting this way means that unless someone “knows” his weakness which I am assuming no one does before hand, there is no jutsu to fight it, even if All 6 bodies are Destroyed Nagato still will be alive and the person who destroyed the bodies wouldn’t think to look else where for Nagato’s and if they do he will still have enough strength to bring back an entire Village so I am sure he will be able to fight of someone that has been fighting against his 6 paths (which I believe no one can truly win against)

    Nagato for “God”

    Itachi is awesome too but I think too much emphisis is put on his abilities with MS he will struggle in a long battle so in a sense someone like Gaara may be able to beat him just by holding out for long enough… 😀

  2. As for Kabuto, he is the ultimate hax at the moment, he is also pretty Strong

    Madara with the stolen Power is also pretty amazing but his Rinnegan/Sharingan seem stolen, his paths are made up of Kabuto’s strongest summons its actually just annoying…

    Naruto Super strong but when he has the fight like he did against pain he is also a pretty good tactitian

  3. i think you should have put sasuke in here too, him being one of the main characters and all.

    other than that it was nicely done, didn’t SU make a post like this a long time ago?
    i checked but it turned out it was almost the same idea but completely different played lol
    https://shannaro.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/who-is-the-greatest-ninja/

  4. “Nagato is perfect in defense against most enemies besides” I would argue that he would also be weak against element based kekkai genkai or unique forms of chakra (similar to senjutsu) as he wouldn’t know how to handle them which could prove hazardous. He is also fairly weak against stealth attacks and I don’t see a reason why “the person who destroyed the bodies wouldn’t think to look else where for Nagato’s” he is the strongest ninja you’ve ever seen, seemingly has multiple bodies, all of which are a little off (because they are in fact already dead). I think any ninja who COULD kill Nagato would have to be smart enough to investigate this. “if they do he will still have enough strength” how is his strength all that different than his paths (since it seems like he can only use one at a time which is logical without shadow clones) if you can defeat the individual bodies why not the whole one?

    I think that Itachi would find a way to beat Gaara long before he ran out of chakra. Gaara is just too much of a momma’s boy psychologically to not get owned by Tsukyoumi making him relive his worst moments.

    “sasuke in”: it’s what happens when you write a blog in 20 min. at 12:00 a.m. Honestly I can’t really give him a fair evaluation since we haven’t seen him recently.

  5. I think a Pre EMS Sasuke deserved to be put in there, he’s a tactical fighter, he has destructive power and endurance. In fact I’d go as far as to say that Sasuke is stronger than Itachi and Nagato. Therefor putting him as third strongest ninja beside the two living Uzumakis, Nagato and Naruto. Oh and Nagato is not even that strong, whether he used Pein or his own body (younger I mean) he would still loose against Itachi and Sasuke. Nagato isnt god

  6. @ Mart – You are assuming as to Nagato’s power from the battle he had between Jiraiya and Naruto right… remember he also defeated Hanzou. and more to our knowledge…

    Let me put it this way which fighter walking into a battle with Pain would be able to beat him…

    Let me start with just the basics of the 6 Paths of Pein, beginning with the battle with Jiraiya who was one of the most powerful characters in this series so far, he was almost beaten purely by 3 paths…

    – I would argue that he would also be weak against element based kekkai genkai or unique forms of chakra.

    I would argue that Pain had mastered all general elements though not any blood limits… and its a little broad for me to argue this point as well. that could mean anything, if you refer to wood element I say Shinra Tensei, if you say lava i say Shinra Tensei… Remember Naruto found out about the gap in time from other people studying the technique in a battle before this ultimate shinobi wont be able to defend against it or know its weakness till it is too late…

    So far Sage is the only chakra that can be mentioned against Preta Path cannot absorb, so saying their is another is pretty useless and only 2 characters know this technique to our knowledge that is alive…

    Nagato is also above Life and Death, this makes him even more powerful being able to suck out the person’s soul that attacks him is pretty nifty, plus he can summon Konan to aid in battle at any time with animal paths ability also his summons protect him, and if any of the bodies of the paths are destroyed they can also be revived… @_@

  7. great post mart, glad to see something other than fanfic and reviews for a change.

    as for the strongest ninja, i agree that there isn’t a clear cut strongest. there is a strongest in a particular area, and in given situations, but kishi is too inconsistent with his “power levels” to deem someone “best.” but with a gun to my head i guess i’d use nagato’s name out of sheer potential.

  8. The strongest is: Zep ‘Ookami’ Hyuga!!! lol.

    This IS an interesting post. Maybe there should be some like this. Good job … umm (Target, no Best Buy, no was it Staples, wait Home Depot, now I remember…) walmart. lol.

  9. “their is another is pretty useless”: I’m saying he may not be able to absorb Lava or Dust or other energy based element kekkai genkai. He might be able to blast away Lava with Shinrei Tensei but it would own Preta path if it was unabsorbable.

    “he was almost beaten”: Jiraiya wasn’t even touched by the first three bodies. I think he could win against the six paths if he knew they existed but hey like I said it’s Ino vs. Nagato… Nagato is the type to take on a whole village, giving random ninja the chance to pass on intel to the ninja that will eventually defeat him. Again his weakness is his tactics and his ability to fight against unique jutsu. In a pure power fight it would always be a win for Nagato, but what ninja is dumb enough to fight him in terms of power? His downfall both times was a specialized jutsu he hadn’t encountered before that got past his defenses (Genjutsu and Senjutsu).

    “Nagato is also above Life and Death”: Eventually this just becomes a stamina fight or a matter of an edo tensei counter (as in seal the bodies so they can’t be brought back)

    “something other than fanfic and reviews”: This is my favorite type of post and one hasn’t been done in a while.

  10. Well done, very nicely written and analysed post! 🙂 It really makes us review better our theories about these characters.

  11. great post, something to read. but i don’t agree with it. i could touch on all the characters but i won’t cause i don’t want to sound like a troll. so for that reason im only touching on naruto. true naruto has a vast arsenal of jutsus on hand. and to me that degrades the character the less he touches on his past ones. its like he is upgrading every time he develops a new jutsu, he doesn’t sit down to explore it, he just moves on to the next impossible jutsu that apparently only he can master. lol. true if they want to attempt to beat naruto they would have to go through his army of clones, but u also have to understand that if they do make it to naruto, all the clones that his opponent beat would have gave naruto all of the data about them. so naruto would be prepared. that kills ur naruto isn’t a tactician theory. it sounded good until i thought about it. on top of those clones, naruto has become a very powerful sensory ninja, so he more than likely would feel the enemy way before he makes it to him. me personally, i think throwing clones out first is a great tactic, if u have the energy to create them and the mental strength to deal with all of the knowledge they are going to feed u when they are dispersed. i’m not naruto’s biggest fan, my fav. is kakashi, but i see a lot of holes in the naruto is only good for power, he doesn’t think and plan.
    i know alot of u guys want to attribute naruto win over nagato to a lot of factors, especially the “pain wasn’t at full strength” cry, but the fact is naruto won, he beat all 6 of them, and then talked nagato into suicide.
    yes, he used intel from the other ninjas in konoha, so what pain used info collected by akatsuki. that there shows that naruto thinks before he fights, matter of fact the speed in which naruto counters the attacks are above normal, he doesn’t panic nor gives up. two examples, both from the pain fight, 1. the counter to feed the path the sage chakra, 2. countering the 5 sec. lag with massive clones. he could have tried to overpower this foe like u stated, but naruto won that fight with cool head and fast thinking. that was just my take on the character, if u wanted to mention any of his flaws, u could argue that sometimes he gets over confident when displaying his new techs. food for thought

  12. I think that a tactical opponent like Shikamaru or Itachi might take Naruto using his clones for intel and use it against him. (For instance put in a fake “tell” and let the clones find it. Then when the real Naruto tries to exploit it, anihilate him. But I don’t think he uses his clones half as effectively as he is given credit for. Like you said once he learns one imposible jutsu he tends to forget his last. He hasn’t openly used his clones to analyze since beating Kakuzu. As seen against Pein he used them offensively but they were never really destroyed (so no tactical feedback). This is however the shown Naruto, I will agree that he will always pull some new imposible jutsu out of his ass, gain new heights of power, but then never explore it. This gives him nearly unlimited potential (which he needs as the title character) but he rarely uses it to it’s fullest.

  13. “i could touch on all the characters but i won’t cause i don’t want to sound like a troll” as long as you make solid points like you did with Naruto, I could care less. I actually encourage people to debate my theories because I find the “who is stronger” questions the main thing that draws me to this site (I could care less about most fanfic.s now-a-days).

  14. @just passing

    naruto may have defeated pains six paths technique, but how can you say he talked him into suicide? he answered nagato’s question on how to bring peace to the world and end the cycle of hatred and with the answer he gave, nagato decided himself to put his faith in naruto. also he decided himself to revive all those who lost their lives in the attack. naruto did NOT talk him into reviving everyone. he didnt even know nagato had that ability.

    i dont understand how people can say naruto won. is it because nagato gave his own life to revive all the shinobi and innocent people that died by his hands? idk. they both were fighting for the same purpose which is peace. although they have different methods they both wanted peace nonetheless. in the end naruto explained to nagato his way of achieving peace and nagato was satisfied with narutos answer enough to place his faith within naruto and by his own decision, revive everyone who died. and naruto didnt try to just over power nagato like any other opponent because he couldnt plain and simple. he used the information that was given to him, came up with plans and executed them successfully. i agree with you there that at first he kept a cool head and thought fast, but he had no other choice. he even lost his cool and let kyuubi take him over almost completely, and not even kyuubi was able to over power nagato. and nagato wasnt even fighting with killing intent.

    both nagato and that fight is always so misconstrued by people and i can never understand why. in a one on one battle to to the death, the only way to win is to kill your opponent or if your opponent surrenders i guess that can be accepted as a victory but no true shinobi would ever surrender. people say naruto won against nagato because nagato is dead and people say tobi won agaisnt minato because minato died. both nagato and minato gave their lives by their own decisions to do so (although minato didnt really have to at all). saying naruto won not only isnt true, but it goes against what his beliefs are what he actually did to resolve the invasion of pain arc. he solved the problem without killing nagato and thats what he represents and what he stands for and because he did that, hundreds maybe thousands were brought back to life.

    “Oh and Nagato is not even that strong, whether he used Pein or his own body (younger I mean) he would still loose against Itachi and Sasuke.”

    that is so unfair to nagato. we havent even seen what hes fully capable of with his rinnegan and we dont even know what are all the powers the rinnegan grants its user. the rinnegan isnt called the greatest of the three great dojutsus for no reason. the sage of the six paths was able to tame the juubi with his rinnegan, thats all the bijuu combined into one massive chakra monster. i hate to see when people limit nagato and the rinnegan to only what they seen they can do. theres a lot more to see which makes statements like the one above just unfair to nagato’s character, his power, and the rinnegan.

    im not trying to shoot down anyone opinions or beliefs or upset anyone. it just upsets me to see a great character and one of the best battles we’ve seen in the entire series be misconstrued by mostly everyone.

  15. @mart

    i wouldnt put tobi or kabuto on that list just yet. we’ve yet to see what either of them can really do in battle.

  16. @ just passing
    I agree with everything you said dealing with naruto but you forgot one major thing. Yes using the mass shadow clone technique is a great tactic but there is a major drawback to all the clones getting dispersed and that’s. The fatigue the orginal naruto gets

  17. 1. The way i see it, the only way to judge these characters is by how they’ve been shown thus far. If we don’t even know(or better yet, the ninjas themselves) all the full possibilites and potential of a ninja and his/or her jutsus, why even try to plug that into the equation?

    2. I think the ninjas(for lack of better word/phrase) mental prowess makes a huge impact in how strong a ninja is and, more importantly, how he fights. Im talking more deep then just strategy and tactics, but emotions, and mental stability, that helps decide which jutsus to use, when and why they use em, and counterstrategys etc etc….
    I think the undead fighters are proof that ninjas battle quite differently depending on their emotions. I know that its highly situational, and with it, potentially any ninja can win/lose any battle, but without some regards, comparing the ninjas on this show is simply boiling down to who has the most chakra and the better jutsus.

  18. FTA itachi has my vote on strongest character. I agree with mart that he’s a bit lacking in power, at least compared to other powerhouses, but damn does he make up for that in,well…..everything else. Originally I was going to say orochimaru because out of all the characters you named, he’s the only one I could think of that has that sweet balance of all those traits, and still could be considered a powerhouse. But if you factor in what I said before this paragraph,(mental prowess and all that) that probably hurts orochimaru the most out of everyone(yes, even sasuke and choji)

  19. Why is Jiraiya still being mentioned??? Nagato destroyed him, Itachi could beat him, Konan could beat him, Tobi could beat him, and the new Kabuto. I agree that Sasuke should have been mentioned, but as Mart mentioned we haven’t seen him in awhile. Even though Sasuke is my favirote character I’m a go ahead and say Kabuto is the best right now. He’s has a army full of Legendary resurrected shinobi. You have to stop them before you get to Kabuto and who in the bluest of blue hell can stop that? Not to mention he’s a medical nin with Oro’s powers and he almost killed Tsunade. He surpassed both the 2nd and Oro when it come to edo tensei. His jutsu’s are very good as well

    As good as Naruto is right now, if had went against Kabuto one on one with “ALL” of his edo tensei summons at once, what would Naruto do?? Until Sasuke returns, Kabuto is the best as we speak

  20. @fastninja, dude calm the frick down, i said he talked him into suicide, NOT reviving all of the citizens of konoha.
    HE DID TALK NAGATO DOWN,, WHEN I SAY THIS U WILL BE LIKE “U MIGHT BE RIGHT” after the long flashback of nagato’s childhood, he asked naruto how was he going to bring peace, after naruto showed him the book, thats when he commited suicide. and his reason being that he lost himself and he was so wrapped up in pain, that he lost track of how he was going to bring peace, he saw in naruto A STRONGER HIM THAT WOULDN’T DEVIATE FROM THE PATH THAT HE LAID OUT FOR HIMSELF.
    “both nagato and that fight is always so misconstrued by people and i can never understand why.” and the answer to that question is ur take on this matter. u already favor nagato, he grew on u, and u can’t see how the kid beat him, its ok, kakashi is my favorite character, and even after he got his ass handed to him by kakazu, i refuse to call that a loss. u can’t shoot down my opinions kid, i believe thats what this site is for. for us guys to bounce ideas off one another in order to try and predict what events will happen next in this anime. no harm done here. just face it kid, this goes for this manga and all others, yeah u may claim that pain wasn’t fighting with “killing intent” and that he had his chakra evenly distributed among his paths, and he has the “special eyes”, the facts are: him and naruto fought and naruto walked away and nagato died, its not “what could have happened” that is the fact, and yes i hate the rate of growth the character is going through, he is indeed powerful and he can be cunning at times, but the guy won that fight. nagato his fighting second round against the boy that beat all six of the paths without any “physical” help and then reason with the man to kill himself and to dump all of his hopes and dreams on naruto. i don’t know about u, but if i’m entrusting my dreams on somebody, i wouldn’t leave them with someone that i wasn’t at least as strong as me or stronger. think about that one buddy.

    ” that is so unfair to nagato. we havent even seen what hes fully capable of with his rinnegan and we dont even know what are all the powers the rinnegan grants its user.”

    i mean, i hear that alot when someone’s favorite character gets killed, they throw the ole’ “potential” argument out on the floor. ok, answer this, if u are in a fight for ur life why would u hold urself back. and don’t say “he didn’t want to kill him, he only wanted to catch him b.s” if that were the case then he wouldn’t have made a moon with naruto in the middle.lol thats really trying to catch him. but seriously, u don’t know how any fight would turn out, so why wouldn’t u go all out. i mean with jiraiya he did play around with the sage, but then when things got serious, he called out his reserves and caught the guy off guard. he pulled that when out of his u know what. and that man didn’t have the chakra reserves as naruto. if u want to be mad at someone, be mad at nagato for being cocky of his own powers and breaking the number law of fighting, underestimating his opponent, the strongest tailed beast.

    “im not trying to shoot down anyone opinions or beliefs or upset anyone. it just upsets me to see a great character and one of the best battles we’ve seen in the entire series be misconstrued by mostly everyone”

    should have said i’m sorry my favorite ninja in the series got killed by his own carelessness, and mental instability. instead of getting nerved when someone mentions naruto’s win, look into how pain could have done that fight better and not get killed.

  21. you tell me to calm down but yet look at what your doing lol. insults? calling me a kid? really? lol. grow up. i only responded to you because i thought you mature and we could have a mature debate, but your obviously too stubborn and feeling yourself way too much to the point where if someone contests one of your comments or ideas you get all mad and throw a fit and start insulting people. seriously grow up and as you can see im not saying your right because your not (well in your little world you are). and how did you if nagato is my favorite character? oh thats right, you dont lol and you obviously got so mad at the fact that someone put you check about what actually happened in that fight that you didnt even pay attention to my icon which is a pic of hidan, my favorite character. and i clearly said as you even pointed out i said im not trying to upset or bash yours or anyone elses opinions, but then again you dont care. you are immature after all. so yea this is pretty much why i stopped debating with people because people like you cant handle it when someone sees something differently than you whether theyre right or wrong. so shannaro beware o_0 immature troll on the loose.

    p.s. “u can’t shoot down my opinions kid, just face it kid”… calling me a “kid” LOL classic.

  22. oh yea and dont expect another response, “kid” lol.

  23. “Why is Jiraiya still being mentioned???” because I like him… I never said he was the strongest just gave him an evaluation. These are my oppinions not fact. That said, I think he could give most people a run for their money, definately beat Konan, and as far as “Tobi could beat him, and the new Kabuto” I think there is a reason Madara refused to give Kabuto his DNA, I can’t theorize how he would beat Madara, but he has a knack for spotting weaknesses and a boat load of experience (that he applies unlike most old ninja). I also think he has at least half a plan for stopping Edo Tensei Zombies as his main rival (Orochimaru) loved this jutsu. He might not be the strongest, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t strong.

    Since most people want one, my evaluation of Sasuke is this:

    He is strong in terms of offence and versatility, however he seems to lack in terms of defence (his sussano, his only real defence, is weaker than Itachi’s [in terms of defence] ) and he overestimates his ability while underestimating others. As seen at the Kage Summit he charged forward recklessly and lost all of his allies, including turning Karin (A vital source of intel on him and a convient power boost) against him.

    My personal oppinion is that Kabuto is the current strongest until Madara reveals that he too has powerful edo tensei zombies (since he copied the jutsu formula). Madara has more potential though. He has full Sharingan/Renningan abilities, Multiple Bijju, Hirishima’s cells, and years of experience. His only downfall seems to be not using these to take what he wants instantly, and instead doing it in a typical round about villan fashion that will eventually allow someone to devise a way to stop him.

  24. @walmart1, i too agree that kabuto has the strongest hand going into this arc, he has all of the edo tensei summons. the fact that he told “madara” was to me a dumb move at first, and then when he says that he still has some hands to play, i let out a sigh or relief. i never thought that kabuto would show all of his tricks to “madara” there has to be some form of drawback or else he wouldn’t need extra power from oro. cause remember when hinata scanned him, she said that oro covered most of his body and is still growing. and now he shows up i’ve always thought the character was fun to watch, and since he said that his father was a medical ninja from konoha i’ve kept my eyes open. he wasn’t oro’s right hand just because he had the healing factor. this guy is good, he fought kakashi and tsunade, and that was before the oro cells. but current battle strength kabuto has the brains the patience and the power.
    oh before i forget @fastninja, i use kid to refer to anyone, doesn’t mean i was callin u one, but i will let u call names and jump to conclusions, i don’t know u and i dont’ want to. i’ll be a troll, but this troll talks with some sense and plenty of knowledge. don’t talk in a rage, it makes no sense and its too troublesome to keep my own emotions out of it. true, i probably offended u and u could have stated that and we could have moved on, i am an adult and thats what we do. i was giving u facts on that battle. went the wrong way so u and me @ing each other is done, i will discuss amongst other peps that don’t offend easily. have a great day

  25. @walmart1, kinda miss my point i was making, but like i said above i’m with u on the kabuto thing. i just hope that he doesn’t let the current situation get the best of him. imo the best course of action now would be cut the personalities of the dead, and re-position most of his forces to naruto and bee to ensure that he is throwing everything at them in order to capture them. leave the kages fighting gaara cause as far as battle strength that have the highest and next is kakashi’s division of close combat fighters. but i would too remove the swordsmen of the mist and throw them, kimimaru, and chiyo for long distant support. and wipe nagato’s mind and put him on kill mode. but it really seems that kabuto doesn’t care about the current summons, he probably has 3 really strong ones that he is saving as protection for himself. and after he captures the bijuu if he can, have nagato bring them to him and then position the summons that survive the fight evenly throughout the battlefield to ensure control. this shouldn’t be hard for him, it also seems like it takes more energy to keep their emotions running. i could be wrong though. if he is as petty as he sounds and only wants sasuke, then that will most definitely be his downfall, cause right about now sasuke should be ridiculously strong, and we will get to see some new jutsu from the EMS. that is just my thoughts on kabutos battle strength. he has it all though, but i really think it goes deeper than sasuke. if it doesn’t i will be greatly disappointed. but if it does, get the best summons, nagato included to find sasuke for u. these are the greatest ninja ever, im sure one of them can fight sasuke before tobi crossing kabuto.
    sorry walmart1, had to handle that little dispute above.

  26. All these comments are to long for me to read, and I’m too lazy to do so. lol. But from what I skimmed, quickshinobi and justpassinggas are arguing, or something. idk.

  27. I still say Orochimaru is the strongest ninja overall. He may not be physically the strongest or is number 1 in each category you named but he would be around number 2 or 3 in each category and no other ninja would rank that high in every category, not even Nagato.

  28. Jiraiya is the more complete ninja and definetly still in the run for strongest. He has power, chakra reserves, speed and smarts. His pre-sagemode strength is already very high, he has plenty of chakra and has very high chakra control as evident by his mastery of Rasengan, which requires high chakra control, his speed is not to be ignored, pre sage mode, and did very well considering their was no reference point to the Nagato’s abilities while Jiraiya’s abilities were well know given the amount of mission and feats he had performed, and it took an overall ambush to take him down, while he lacked the field advantage, was he even injured pre ambush? answer is no. Oh and pre-empt the fact that when he faced Hanzo he was still very young, lest we forget Hanzo did cripple Nagato, when he was young as well so everyone get the point? Madara is a one trick pony, Kabuto’s chakra is weaker than Oro’s not to say he has little chakra, but Kabuto acknowledges the strength behind Oro’s chakra, Itachi is very close, he just needs more stamina, which would be his downfall in the long run, Nagato has no mobility, his rejuvenation is due to the properties of the Edo summon and his chakra draining abilities, his overall lack of mobility and lack of strength would be his downfall. Nagato could not fully counter Amaterasu, the damage was already done, go reread the part or watch the part where he was burning for a couple a seconds and tell me he wasn’t damaged. Naruto just needs more experience then he will be the strongest no arguing there, its just his generation lacks any knowledge of how to perform seals for their jutsu’s, that’s why old school fights were funner, Naruto’s fighting style is just one dimensional. My thought’s on this post is…..trololololol, but it’s still fun to hear others opinions. Good post walmart1.

  29. @ John, i totally agree on all points. i could not have said it better.

  30. Anyone know if we’ll get a chapter this week?? or is it odon week or watever its called??
    And what about Tsunade, killer bee or raikage for the strongest?? I suppose u could say that bee’s weakness is in genjutsu seeing as both of the uchiha bro’s caught him with it- if he didnt have the 8 tails he’d have been screwed and A’s weakness is dude just isnt a tactical fighter an gets lets his emotions real him!

  31. @Tensa

    Unfortunately last week was a double issue. Hard to think it wasn’t with the big finish in Bleach and Naruto.

    KB’s weakness is he gets carried away, not really taking the battle too seriously at all (perhaps overconfident). A’s problem is he takes things too seriously.

    I agree that Jiraiya is underrated. He went into enemy teritory all by himself and could have come out alive if he chose to. The argument that he just “sees what happens” over the course of the battle isn’t fair because Jiraiya was trying to figure Pain out, so he had to try things out. He has a large array of jutsu and he is good at using them effectively. Unfortunately we haven’t really seen him in any other kinds of fights (except the one with Oro and Tsunade, but he was drugged up).

  32. “what about Tsunade, killer bee or raikage for the strongest?”: Tsunade, really??? I can’t think of a single catagory she can compete in. Killer Bee just a weaker Naruto. Raikage just a weaker KB. I think that sums it up.

  33. Great post. I think Jiraya should be spoken for. Not only with his versatility with Jutsus but his knowledge of battle. Remember when Itachi and Kisame first visit to Konoha? And I quote,” if we were to get into a battle with him we would probably lose.” As far as Nagato beating down Jiraya he did know nearly all of his techniques and how to counter them. To push Nagato into the use of six pains with no prior knowledge of any of his techniques is quite great.

    The fact that Nagato now does not need to use a separate pain for each power is interesting. He loses the advantage of multiple eyes on the targets and teamwork but gains positives in not having to worry about losing a power because a single pawn was destroyed (ie no more summons if animal pain is dead).

  34. “if we were to get into a battle with him we would probably lose”.

    I said this before and I guess I’ll say it again. Itachi did NOT want to bring harm to Konoha. Killing Jiraiya would be a huge lost to Konoha, so don’t take Itachi words to heart. Itachi has never been completely truthful through out the whole series of Naruto. Him and Kisame would easily destroy Jiraiya. Jiraiya is definitely top 10, but no where near top 5. People always try to make excuses for Jiraiya, but the fact is Pain killed him in a fair fight, Sasuke became stronger with his time training with Orochimaru compared to Naruto training with Jiraiya, and he gave up his search for Orochimaru, I’m guessing Oro was too much for him. If Kabuto summons a edo tensei version of Jiraiya, I might change my mind, but from what we have seen from him I would never consider Jiraiya to be the strongest, maybe one of the strongest but not “the” strongest. Kabuto is the only one who deserves that title.

    1. Kabuto
    2. Tobi (Madara)
    3. Nagato
    4. Itachi
    5. Naruto
    6. Sasuke-(until further notice)
    7. Orochimaru
    8. The 3rd Hokage & the 4th Hokage
    9. Jiraiya
    10. Kakuzu

    * I want to put Onoki on this list because he survived from his fight with Madara unlike Minato and Konan, but we don’t know if they fought before or after Madara gained EMS or MS for that matter, and he’s going one on one with his former master right now, he is definitely considerable.

  35. @fleece

    im surprised you put sasuke at number six on your list and im even more surprised you put itachi at number 4 lol. i thought you didnt like itachi because he killed his family.

    also, wouldnt you put mu on that list? the alliance is terrified of him, he has mastery of the dust release, hes one of the most best sensory shinobi we’ve seen thus far (imo 3rd strongest behind naruto and karin ), and he can physically erase any sign of his presence, chakra and all by blending in with his surrounding.

  36. “didn’t think of (his summons)”

    Nah he made it perfectly clear he knew he could do that. When he was alive we just never saw him use it, or does anyone think Konan brought him there? Nagato is easily the strongest ninja we’ve seen in action.

    @John, cute, but Jiraiya is no longer in the running as strongest ninja. We know Kabuto and Madara are on Nagato’s level when he was alive, and we know Nagato >> Everyone else.

    Dont give me that “He would’ve won if he knew my secret thing”, because as Mart said, given a perfect situation anyone can beat anyone. Nagato, by himself, conquered one of the 5 Great Nations, decimated Hanzo and Danzo’s joint army, and conquered Amegakure by himself. Jiraiya is Tier 2, by no means weak, but Tier 1 consists of better ninjas: Nagato, Kabuto, Madara. Tier 0 is obviously Sage of Six Paths and Juubi.

    Tier 0:

    Rikudo Senin
    Juubi

    Tier 1:

    Nagato
    Kabuto
    Rinnegan Madara

    Tier 2:

    Raikage
    Jiraiya
    Killerbee
    Naruto
    Itachi
    Orochimaru
    Onoki
    Sasuke
    Minato
    Kisame w/ Samehada

    Tier 3:

    1. Kisame w/o Samehada
    Konan
    Mei Terumi
    Tsunade
    Sarutobi
    Gaara
    Kakashi
    Kakuzu
    Sasori
    Hidan
    Hashirama
    Tobirama
    Blah blah blah….

  37. @ Kisu – Agreed 😀

  38. Pretty much agree with kisu’s tiers but Kabuto being in tier 1 still doesnt feel right- guess i wanna see him in a full scale battle with Oro’s powers so we can really see him shine, for me personal he’s inbetween tier 1 an 2.
    Also i’d put itachi in the same league as nagato so tier 1, dude damn near planned sasuke’s whole life lol

  39. @fastninja, Sasuke is still the best character. The list is just at the moment. I’m sure Sasuke will surpass Madara and Kabuto considering Naruto vs Sasuke is the last battle and Sasuke would get a huge upgrade like Naruto. I don’t know what’s the hold up but Sasuke should be making his epic return soon. As far as Itachi goes, I have second thoughts on him ever since Shisui has been brought up again, I think Itachi was under a genjutsu because who on earth would kill their own mother consciously.

    Yeah Muu should be considered one of the strongest. I put Jiraiya and Kakuzu in my top 10 because most people are more familiar with them and Onoki & Muu battles outside of their own has not been evaluated or given a background on what they can do fighting other top tier shinobi. If I put Muu in my top 10 I would have to put the 2nd Mizukage on it aswell, but Kishi showed more focus on fat boy Choji and the weakest team leader Asuma instead of showing why the former kages were so powerful. So i can’t call it

  40. Hmm, Kisu. I think that’s a great way of ranking people except I would put it like this:

    Tier 1:
    Kabuto
    Madara (Renningan)
    Nagato
    Itachi

    and then take Sasuke and Naruto out of tier 2 and put them in tier 0. Why? simply because much like the Sage of Six Paths or the Jubbi, they have ungodly powers that we don’t fully understand what they are exactly, and can’t describe their full capabilities as anything besides the strongest jutsu ever. They are and always will be Kishimoto’s fav. characters. They will get his best jutsu and already know the three strongest in existance (Plot-hole-no-jutsu, Talk-no-jutsu, and Level-haxxxx-no-jutsu)

  41. @Kisu
    That’s a very “cute” way of seeing things, when you are the one always claiming field advantage as the reason for Nagato’s loss, is it not, did Nagato not attack Konoha, what do you expect would happen, he attacked all of Konoha, all of Konoha was going to fight back. Now one’s talking about ideal circumstances favoring one over the other, just more or less fair to both character, know the difference? When did Nagato conquer one of the Five Great Nations? wrong there my friend your slipping. Hanzo/ Danzo army? more like squad of paper cut shinobi, since when have Anbu been “worthy” opponents Konohamaru could take them out, without Gedo Mazo. lol. Amegakure was in a state of up heavel, weakened by the “Great Ninja War’s”, Nagato was just an opportunist, who came in when Ame was at its weakest, just like all your so called “1st tier” character’s, opportunists because they know their weak in the grand scheme of things be it mentally, physically or both. Kabuto was weak he needed to jack other’s power, same thing for Madara, opportunist who are weak with a messiah complex. If anything Jiraiya, Itachi, Minato, the Third make the first tier, while the rest fall where they may.

  42. @ John – Okay so take Jiraiya, he was beaten by Pain, so leave him out of that list,

    Are you saying IF Itachi took on the entire Konoha Army and a Sage Mode Naruto came after protected by Plot and knowing Itachi’s abilities he would win…?

    Same with Minato?

    If Pain fought any of those shinobi head on without any previous knowledge Pain would win, the man was above life and death his ability was almost the most fool proof… It would immediately be 6 powerful shinobi vs 1 and that is before you even consider Gedo Moza and Nagato himself, who was able to after all this still revive an entire Village he had destroyed…

    None of those could do that, NONE! Not even precious Minato could bring back the dead like Nagato did the guy is above life and death how do you beat that O_O? Give me a real strategy and I will say okay cool 😛

    Remember Kakashi, Yamato etc where all ANBU, these are pretty strong guys, wasn’t Itachi too @_@

    Opportunity? He was able to bring peace to a nation in Civil War, Hanzou though seeming lame in the last post was able to handle Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru at Jonin Level without even blinking, he gave them the name just for surviving and Pain beat him without a scratch, he brought together the 10 most powerful shinobi under his control and they followed his orders which does say alot esp since Oro was included in this list too 😛

  43. Wait O_O Supposed to be to John sorry Mart O_O

  44. you guys think pretty highly of kabuto huh? i agree he is strong, and formidable, but honestly i think he is being ranked too high. when i think of the “strongest ninja” i think of what they themselves are capable of – something like one shinobi placed in a room to battle it out with whoever else. in my opinion, the edo tensei doesn’t speak for kabuto’s personal strength, just that he currently has control over strong shinobi’s. i suppose it is all opionated, whether you count them toward kabuto’s personal strength or not, but i do not, and the fact that these edo summons are frequently being sealed or released means that kabuto’s “strength” is constantly diminishing throughout this war.

  45. I disagree about Kabuto/Edo Tensei strength, I think Kabuto is smart enough to always have the “supplies” to use Edo Tensei and keep some powerful ninja for defence. It’s been shown that ninja can summon other ninja, and Kabuto has that Sound Village as folder ninja to use as sacrifices, so it’s reasonable to say he could use it at any time even if he was randomly placed in a room. Furthermore his summons are also killing lots of people (mostly folder ninja but still) opening up new possibilities for him to use.

  46. @pein0avenue
    First, Itachi would just snatch Naruto without doing the obviously dumb thing, which is to attack a village, Itachi would cater to “his” strengths, hypnotize and snatch. Which is a win.
    Secondly, Nagato is just like Naruto, all that power and he doesn’t know how to use it, who wipes out a village and dies bringing the people back, kind of seems counter productive. Not very smart if you ask me, that kind of thinking is a guaranteed second tier ranking right there. Here’s the perfect strategy: get him mad, make him destroy my village, teach him Narutoism and make him give up his life in reviving the people, perfect strategy works every time, there you go… happy to help. NOW SAY COOL! 🙂
    Okay, wait you’ll take Konan’s word at face value, as she’s the one that says he’s “beyond life and death”, but you won’t take Nagato’s word at face value, that he would not have won against Jiraiya without his advantage? think it over. Hanzo faced the Sannin way before they were Jonin, it doesn’t even mention what age or rank they were, but it was way before Jiraiya taught Minato, and ninja are in charge of a gening squad when they become Jonin, so its likely that the soon to be Sannin were chuunin or something like that. As for the Anbu, Itachi, Kakashi and Tenzo are but few of the exceptions when it comes to those cardboard ninja. Nagato took down Hanzo without a scratch you say? Your feelings cloud your judgement, was it not Hanzo the one that crippled Nagato for life, and forced Nagato to shorten his lifespan or life force by using Gedo Mazo? and remember Nagato only beat a Hanzo, who was a former shell of himself, he was probably considerably older, opportunist much. That whole hype of “Beyond Life and Death” is reminiscent of those titles “Ultimate Defense”, “Ultimate Attack”, remember Nagato did in fact die, his “soul” was brought back by Kabuto, not through his own doing. So Jiraiya is still top tier. sorry about that… 😉

  47. @John, being the strongest doesn’t mean you cannot be defeated, it means you are most likely to win a battle. With a straight face, tell me Jiraiya could defeat Hanzo and Danzo’s entire army in a matter of moments and conquer Konoha by himself then immediately fight a Sage/Jinchuriki.

    @Kabuto, I put him in Tier 1 simply because of Edo Tensei.

    @Mart, The Kyubi isn’t as strong as the Juubi, so Naruto, who doesn’t have the Kyubi’s full power, is not Tier 0. Sasuke is always roughly equal to Naruto so he isn’t Tier 0 either.

  48. “The Kyubi isn’t as strong as the Juubi”: You fail to take into account that the Jubbi is a mindless beast. Naruto (who was able to fight the kyubbi though I’ll admit that in his mind might not be exactly real) and the Kyubbi are formidable opponents by themselves, but put them together and they have the inteligence to USE their raw power. Something the Jubbi lacks. He’s probably not as strong as the Sage, but then again the Sage’s power could be a figment of Tobi’s twisted immagination. Sasuke being roughly equal to Naruto puts him there as well. I’m not saying that they are equals, but I think that Naruto and Sasuke are just too plot blessed to be threatened by anyone which is exactly what makes the sage/jubbi so strong.

    “tell me Jiraiya could defeat Hanzo and Danzo’s entire army in a matter of moments”: Probably: I mean those ninja did practically nothing to defend themselves. They are truely paper cutout ninja.

    I think that Konoha vs. Everyone else in Konoha would have the same result as Nagato. He would own almost everyone in Konoha (remember how much damage Orochimaru did with just his summons?) but get defeated by Naruto.

  49. @John,,THUMBS UP BUDDY~~~~!!!!
    u are correct on all levels.
    being strong means knowing ur strengths and using them to ur full advantage.
    pain did state that “he only won because jiraiya didn’t know his secret” all of jiraiya’s jutsus countered pain’s. summoning, rasengan, taijutsu, genjutsu…etc. and he has large chakra reserves.
    im glad someone feels me on the pain situation. he’s soo godly powerful that he destroys a village, and then kills himself bringing everyone to life. lol, thats not cool, like i said before, he couldn’t cut it or handle the fact that he strayed away from his ninja path, so he dumped all his hopes and dreams on naruto.
    i won’t even mention naruto and sasuke because its just unfair for those guys to have those powers.

    if by chance shikamaru had more stamina, he would definitely be no.1. a man’s most dangerous weapon is his mind. and shikamaru is smart, calculated, ruthless to handle anything, just sucks that they had to balance him out by giving him crappy chakra levels.

    alot of u guys are talking about the “juubi”, really? that thing was never shown in action what so ever, but u are already “praising ” it. as it stands the kyuubi is the strongest.

    i don’t like the direction that this manga is going, but i invested too much of my time not to see it through to the end. the jutsu levels are reaching dragonballz territory and thats a bad thing. it was great when we saw the hand signs, and knew what was strong against what. now everyone can pull jutsus without hand signs, amazing.

    i was really interested in this discussion, but what started out as fun has turned into a “my character is better because” match. facts are facts, the dead were beaten, there isn’t going to be a “if circumstances were met” no, they were murdered or in pain’s situation committed suicide from a lecture. the stronger ninja won. no handicaps, no excuses. now the only thing left that is truly a mystery is, whats under that mask.

    i respect all of u guys opinions and it gives me different angles to view from. but im sticking to the script. great ninjas are dead and are zombies now, naruto and sasuke are super elite ultra hacks.

    and the mystery of tobi/madara will not make any sense what so ever…….

  50. “he would not have won against Jiraiya without his advantage”

    If i had a dime for each time this lame excuse keeps being brought up, I’ll be richer than Dustin Neil Diamond. Could someone please tell me the advantage Pain had over Jiraiya? Was it location? If anyone say it was because Jiraiya didn’t know any of his abilities, you’re dumb and should probably stop reading the manga. If each shinobi knew each other techniques without figuring it out on there own it takes the surprise out of battles, battles would be much longer because each shinobi would know how to counter their opponents techniques. Jiraiya fans need to stop crying and just admit Jiraiya was nothing more than comedy relief and has never made a big impact on the series besides training Naruto and we all seen the results of that 2 in a half years. FAIL!

    Here’s my evaluation of Jiraiya sensei

    A guy who was weaker than Naruto at the time he, Oro and Tsunade fought Hanzo “3 on “1. A guy that learned Rasengan from his student who was 15-20 years younger than him. He had sage mode but still couldn’t sense death coming near. A guy who cared so much about his village that he wasn’t even around when it was attacked twice. A guy with Sage mode but couldn’t track down Orochimaru, but Naruto easily located Nagato in a matter of seconds. A guy who can extend & control his hair to be used as offense and defense. He was the legendary pervy sage for being exactly that, a perv.

    Yep Jiraiya definitely deserves to be top tier. Who on earth could stop this man. Itachi? Lol no way. Nagato? LMAO you’re crazy. Kabuto? GTFO. Jiraiya has the most entertaining battles in all of Naruto, remember when he, Tsunade, and Naruto fought off Kabuto and Orochimaru. Classic! or that time he battled Pain but still died. Still a classic. Jiraiya has the most rememberable battles in Naruto and that is why he deserves to be number #1.

    ^^^^^ That’s how Jiraiya fanboys sound

  51. @fleece, hey man, im not knocking ur opinions, its great, like i said gives me another point of view to look at.
    but if its burning in u to know what the “secret” was, i have a few ideas.
    1. besides the other 3 paths
    2. he would know that nagato was the real one.
    that knowledge alone would have been his downfall.
    jiraiya wasn’t by far a dumb shinobi, he played the fool cause thats just how he is. but knowing that nagato was close and controlling the 6 paths would go like this.
    (it doesn’t matter cause in the end he died anyways) be would have totally bypassed fighting the paths with some of his arsenal. or maybe used sage mode and let ma search the “real one” out. he could easily have kept the others busy with toads. but he got the basic idea of how to finish the paths off, divide and conquer, it would have worked. he counters all of nagato’s jutsus, and on top of that he had extra insight with ma and pa on his shoulders. im not saying pain is weak, hell no he isn’t.
    it takes a real man to admit when he pulled a win out of his ass. he was jiraiya’s student for 3yrs. so by that knowledge alone he knew what jiraiya was capable of.
    and ma,pa, and jiraiya are way smarter than naruto, pa would have figured out how each path works, faster than the konoha nins.
    but with the knowledge that a crippled nagato was nearby controlling dead bodie(which i think was a wasted explanation seeing as we don’t get to see the collection) it would have been less stress and more tactical. remember dude, that jiraiya wasn’t hit one time by the summons or the 3 paths, it was only when deva healed them, that they got that surprise attack.
    jiraiya was clever, the fool was just as act. that was the best fight of the manga to me. but he isn’t my favorite character. but i give credit where its due.

    the slug told naruto about the path that heals, the slug. and that was from the info kakashi died to pass on.
    pa is a shikamaru in toad form, and so is ma, they would have spotted that out eariler and dealt with it. and then found nagato and maybe tried to talk some sense into him, cause he thought it was yahiko.

    and jiraiya only stayed back to make sure he was correct about yahiko being dead and nagato being the mastermind, yes it was foolish, but that was critical info. without that pain wouldn’t be a zombie now.

    as far orochimaru, jiraiya wasn’t really trying to kill him, they shared a naruto/sasuke bond, so thats y he just kept tabs on him. and when jiraiya was needed during the raid, he was there, if u want to blast someone, blast tsunade.

    don’t bash the make believe character, respect him, he’s been protecting konoha in similar fashion as itachi, from the shadows gathering intel on possible threats.

    and lastly, if u look at the fight with hanzou, all three sannin were damn near tired, jiraiya more than others because he fights like naruto, going all out. oro is tactical and tsunade medical. they were not as experienced as hanzou.

    and again u guys are missing the point of naruto learning rasengan.
    his father developed that tech. so jiraiya saw fit to teach it to his son.
    and naruto was learning with the mass clones, and we all know that cuts training in half if not 3/4. thats how he learned it so fast.

    he didn’t want to search and destroy oro, he just wanted to keep tabs on him so he wouldn’t be a threat, come on man, u just bashing unfairly now.

    jiraiya is famed for not only being a perv, but an author, and strong shinobi that traveled the world, and had the guts to perform a summoning with out a contract. thats epic, again, he isn’t my character but don’t water him down like he isn’t s#%t.
    thanks buddy

  52. “You fail to take into account that the Jubbi is a mindless beast.”

    That wasn’t stated in the manga. None of the other Biju are mindless beasts so why should the Juubi, their true form, be mindless?

  53. @just passing, so you’re saying Jiraiya lost because he couldn’t figure out who was the real Pain? No matter how it’s worded, a excuse is a excuse. Jiraiya passing on infromation to Konoha was vital, but he died in a fair fight. What was Pain going to do, give him the location to where the real Pain was hiding? It’s like almost like edo tensei, you would need Naruto’s power to find the real puppeteer. Like many others I feel we haven’t seen Jiraiya’s full potential power, and hopefully Madara or Kabuto can bring him back so we can witness that.

    When Jiraiya trained Yahiko, Konan, and Nagato, Jiraiya himself was fairly young. Jiraiya didn’t have sage mode or knew about Rasengan yet. All he taught them was the basics to protect themselves. We don’t know all the abilities Jiraiya had when he was in Amegakure. If he knew his abilities or not, what does that mean? Nagato cheated?? The 3 rd Hokage supposedly had a counter for every shinobi in Konoha, and we all know what Orochimaru did to him, I’m using the same scenario you’re trying to use to give Jiraiya a excuse to why he lost. Just Passing you’re cool man, but excuses are excuses. I can’t really blast Tsunade because through out the series it has been emphasized she’s weak and nothing more then eye candy and a good medical nin. Jiraiya could have been much more needed help when Konoha was invaded twice.

    “don’t bash the make believe character, respect him, he’s been protecting konoha in similar fashion as itachi, from the shadows gathering intel on possible threats”

    I do repect him, but I don’t have to like him. Jiraiya served his purpose, but there is just no way you can say he’s top tier, not at this moment in the manga atleast.

    “he didn’t want to search and destroy oro, he just wanted to keep tabs on him so he wouldn’t be a threat, come on man, u just bashing unfairly now.”

    I guess Jiraiya was doing a great job keeping tabs on Oro, especially when he invaded Konoha, and led the 3rd Hokage to kill himself. I’m not bashing Jiraiya, I’m keeping it real. Jiraiya never once made me think he’s the strongest, mostly because he was goofy all the time. If Kishi ever decides to bring him back through edo tensei, then we can see why he was so legendary, but until then he was nothing more then what you praised him for, He’s tier 2 just as Kisu put it. Nothing more nothing less. He’s is the funniest shinobi though that’s for sure.

  54. @ John –

    Again we are putting the strongest ninja in a battle against each other… BATTLE not happy fairy land and no one will know Nagato’s weakness for soppy books 😛

    IF Jiraiya knew he would of beaten Pain, yes and IF my aunty had B@lls she would be my uncle 😛 That is what IF’s get you, Nagato beat Jiraiya before he could truly figure it out, also they only learnt Deva’s ability later and the other abilities was studied for ages before Pain arrived…

    Konan’s word… WTF did I miss something, He brought Back an ENTIRE VILLAGE from the grave not Edo Tensei but brought them back that is above life and death I believe since he can also suck peoples souls out so that is pretty strong too….

    In a Battle, Pain beats anyone in an open field no background people and just fighting with their most powerful abilities…

  55. @Kisu
    -_- Jiraiya could do all that without having to cripple himself further and without cutting his lifespan. Anbu are for, almost, virtually every case fodder.(That thing in front is supposed to be a straight face)

    @Kisu and Walmart1
    Oh and on the Bijuu thing, didn’t Chiyo say that they were mindless masses of chakra who over time developed their intelligence and personalities based on the host? if that is the case then it would mean the Juubi was probably a mindless dreadnaught, who developed intelligence and personality after being sealed within the Sage of six Path’s, so it come’s down to Pre-SoSP sealing and post. Because frankly a “smart” Kyuubi, would have a strong chance against a “dumb” Juubi. Just like a “smart” Shika, has a strong chance against a “dumb” Hidan, even though their power is no where near equal.

    @Just passing
    Thanks dude. Some people actually get it, really appreciate it, felt outnumbered.

    @Fleece
    Like how there is no evidence behind downplaying a characters strength behind some people’s comments, just, “Jiraiya is not this, he is not that” just rubbish, and like wise Jiraiya haters will always use the same logic, faulty as it may be, to diminish the strength behind his character. Using same logic that was used in older posts. Yet for all this supposed secretiveness behind Ninja, Jiraiya was not hiding from anyone, he was traveling, doing missions, stuff for Konoha, being a badass, their was alot of info on his techniques, except maybe Sage Mode, while the Nagato was an obscurity, who Jiraiya trained in the fundamentals, which made Nagato strong enough to survive, but the full extent of the Rinnegan was not revealed in that short time.Nagato had info on Jiraiya, Jiraiya did not on Nagato.

    @Everyone else
    Show support for your favorite character’s don’t just get polarized by the ongoing debates, if you think Killer Bee, Tsunade, Mei, Sakura, and so on are the strongest don’t be afraid to say so. Get in there in debate, I’m all for reading each one’s perspective on his or her character…………….except for Sasuke he’s not in the run in for anything. 😉

  56. @pein0avenue
    Not “happy fairy land”, but a land of “equality” where everyone is at equal advantage, I’m not trying to romanticize the art of battle or anything like that, violence is violence, well I guess hoping for a fair fight is somewhat romanticizing it huh? either way Jiraiya wins hands down in neutral ground
    Still I delivered a valid strategy to beating Nagato, now I’m just waiting for my “cool”. 8) FYI Nagato died, that does not make him beyond life and death, since death applied. What’s with the weird analogy about “aunty” and “uncle”? that makes an “ancle” 🙂 Odd analogy, misguided even, slightly disturbing, but nonetheless funny.lol

  57. Love the site. Like this post. Like reading everyone’s opinions. I can’t help with the discussions John but i like your views.

  58. I wish Kishi had shown more growth of the Konoha Eleven especially Rock Lee and Neji. They were around the same power with Naruto, Sasuke, and Gaara when they were genin but then again what else can we see from Lee besides his high speed taijutsu since he can’t use ninjutsu. Maybe improved eight gates opened drunken boxing? I love Rock Lee. Just sayin

  59. @ Fleece Johnson, i respect ur opinion, and like i said jiraiya isn’t one of my favorite characters, but he did know sage mode while he was training the rain kids, he probably never used it around them. he was to my knowledge one of the first ppl to use summoning without a contract, and got reversed summoned to the toad world, where he trained twice as hard, in regular ninjutsu and sage techs. then got his prophecy and traveled the world….just saying, don’t bash

  60. @john, no problem dude, u see things from all points of view and thats y i respect ur comment. but u will turn blue in the face if u try to show ppl “how and why” , they won’t accept it because that would mean coming to the realization about their respective character. but i feel what u are saying 100%

  61. “None of the other Biju are mindless beasts”: none of them are by default “sane”… and it was stated. oh wait john said that already.

    Anyway I wrote this post and another because there is no chapter this week, and this is everyone’s default discusion for no chapter weeks. I hope you enjoyed it and my other one that comes out tommarow.

  62. @justpassing

    Yeah, Jiraiya knew Sage Mode then:

    he was told by the Great Sage to write a book that would change the world and that happened before the book he dedicated to Nagato. Plus, why would Jiraiya have his students wear those frog suits in that weird flashback? Clearly he had already trained with the toads.

  63. @ ripcord, i know he did, and thanks for clarifying it. indeed, this was the best discussion post that i’ve responded to in a while. i’ve only been stuck on defending jiraiya because ppl are trying to downplay his strengths. true, he was comic relief, but isn’t a shinobi’s greatest weapon deception? he got serious when it counted.
    yes, he wasn’t in konoha when oro destroyed it, by then he was on akatsuki, cause that posed the greatest risk to the village at the time. but when he got wind of it he was there are fast as he could.
    im not saying jiraiya is the strongest ninja, because he isn’t, this manga has a sick idea that the next generation is suppose to be 20xs better than the previous shinobi, and that sucks.

    im not making excuses as to y jiraiya lost to pain cause there isn’t any excuses, he lost, point blank. i was stating what some of these guys “super ninja” himself stated. and it was if jiraiya had known that nagato was crippled and controlling “dead” bodies, that he would have lost.
    how clean cut and straight forward is that. and when u think about it, nagato was telling the truth. and thats y i respect the character of pain, he never lied, he admits when he’s wrong, he respects his fallen teammates, and he knows when to throw that deva pain in the rear position because he knows that path will be needed against that foe.

    if anything he underestimate jiraiya by only sending 3. and those 3 didn’t lay one hand on the man, so when jiraiya’s back was turned he brought out the other 3 and healed the previous paths.

    and like i said deception is suppose to be how ninja fought, and that is how nagato won that fight, holding back to access jiraiya fighting strength, and then throwing everything that he had at him. no excuses. he won.

    and like i also said, if jiraiya had known about the dead bodies, and nagato controlling them, he would have simply bypassed the paths, and used his sage mode, or ma and pa, and went straight to the crippled “god”. but he didn’t know and he lost. but don’t let jiraiya’s easygoing attitude negate the fact that he is a worldly known and strong shinobi. everyone has their own personality. itachi was cold as hell, but he turned out to be a good guy, and shikamaru is lazy as s#%t, but he is the smartest and most dangerous ninja of his generation, even going so far as to trap tobi in the shadow mimic, and earn praise from kakuzu. just saying, just cause he likes ladies and booze doesn’t mean crap, he had a strong love for konoha, like when him and tsunade were drinking and he flipped on her stating that if he even thinks that she would harm the village in any way, he would kill her. and that was his own team mate, the lady got scared and drugged him to get him out of the way.

    whoa, the man isn’t weak, and im not making excuses for his loss. he lost, point blank. so he isn’t strong enough to live on. but pain isn’t invincible, he’s a dead zombie now. but he’s beyond life and death. ok

  64. I take strongest shinobi as if you put 2 shinobi 1v1 in a genin test situation like in an arena. I would say Minato or Itachi. That fight would be insane.
    Minato could always just opt for a tie vs any shinobi with the death god tech and i think itachis fully developed susano with the hax shield and hax sword is pretty untouchable.

    Also if itachi was a cold hearted fuck and snatched sasugheys eyes out he would be #1 hands down so he pretty much chose not to be a god.

  65. And those who say minato doesnt deserve that?

    He fought the Kyubi and Madara at the same time on the fly with no prior planning… Teleported the Kyubis masive chakra,Mastered the flying thunder god tech and Landed a clean blow on Tobi and was revered by his generation as the “Savior” as said by the raikage.

  66. nagato isnt above life and death at all, he died lol. his abilities are beyond life and death, but hes a mortal just like every other shinobi. also i too believed that if jiraiya had prior knowledge to nagatos six paths of pain technique, he would have defeated all the paths, tracked nagato down and confronted him. he was renowned world wide and received praise from almost every opponent we know he encountered. he may have been goofy and perverted, but when it came down to it whether it be spying or battle he got serious. imo jiraiya was one of the strongest shinobi we’ve seen and definitely deserves a spot in the top 10. i have to side with those defending jiraiya on this one.

  67. “Using same logic that was used in older posts”

    Using what logic and from who? I’ve been on this site for awhile, under different names until I decided to use my real one. I debated you before John. I never said Jiraiya was hiding, I was asking where was he at when Konoha was attacked twice? Don’t blame Nagato for the whatever info he had on Jiraiya, Oro wanted Nagato, Konan, and Yahiko dead. Saying Jiraiya is better than Nagato, is like saying Piccolo is better than Vegeta, or Stone Cold Steve Austin is better than The Rock. Jiraiya has not put in the work as someone like Nagato who conquered everyone in his path.

    Pain’s rampage:

    Hanzo ✓
    Jiraiya ✓
    Utakata ✓
    Konoha ✓

    Jiraiya’s rampage:

    3 paths that came back to kill him

    I wasn’t joking when I said Jiraiya left no major impact. Minato left a impact, Itachi left a impact, Orochimaru left a major impact. Can anyone say Jiraiya left a big impact like the 3 other guy’s I mentioned? Quit with the would of, should of, could of already, It’s annoying. Like justpassing said, “he lost point blank”.

  68. @Fleece
    Jiraiya left those promising students of his, Nagato, Minato, Konan, Naruto, therefore his students accomplishment can be attributed to him. Twice? Oro’s invasion and which else? in case you didn’t notice he was fighting that summon that no one else could handle, and Konoha was not conquered then and was not conquered by Nagato. So the way I see it Jiraiya did his job Konoha is still standing. Nagato had just been sitting there like an opportunist for most of the time, and he “lost” under unfair circumstances, so no, I won’t stop, not now, not ever. FYI Stone Cold is better than the Rock, by a little bit, but better nonetheless.

  69. Stone Cold Steve Austin WAS better than The Rock

  70. Have we ever seen Stone Cold Steve Austin vs Goldberg……. no
    Austin vs Lesnar……… no
    Austin vs Hogan…….. no
    Better heel….. The Rock

    I can go on and on but you get the point. You’re Praising Jiraiya (Ausitin) over other’s who actually put in the work. The 9 tails invasion was the other time, he loved Konoha so much, where was he then?? Jiraiya isn’t the only who molded Naruto into the shinobi he has become today. Naruto had help from others like Kakashi, Asuma, Killer Bee, and Iruka aswell. Minato taught Jiraiya Rasengan, not the other way around! Hanzo and Danzo caused Nagato to activate his Rinnegan so Nagato’s accomplishments can be attributed by them aswell, Jiraiya just taught Nagato and Konan how to protect themselves, and if you want to give Jiraiya credit for Nagato’s accomplishments, then you’re also giving Jiraiya credit for Asuma’s death, The death of Chiyo, 6 dead jinchuriki, and anything else associated with Akatsuki because Akatsuki was created and led by “Nagato”, and he gave the orders. Jiraiya would be Vince McMahon in this case if you want to give him credit for Naruto’s accomplishments. BTW The Rock gave us more matches, funny moments, and better promos! so Stone Cold and his WHAT? chants can take a trip down jabroni avenue.

  71. I got to give my “strongest character” vote to A. He’s got the sheer strength to overpower anyone and the agility to out maneuver alot of people. He’s got the experience to go toe-to-toe with some of the most experienced ninja and can augment his strategy to alot of situations. His biggest flaw is his…..anger. If u can successfully shake his mind and make him angry u MIGHT have a chance…..jus be ready to deal with an angry guy whose powers are considered legendary lol

  72. one thing thats been bothering me though, when kabuto and deidera laid seige on that giant turtle to get yamamto. kabuto said something along the lines of he didn’t expect that one ninja with the sunglasses to be on the island. is that saying how strong that guy is, cause all i’ve seen him do is use crows and a black sword.

    but the way this manga is now, i don’t trust anyone that covers their eyes…lol something could be hidding under them.

    the man never did anything in the manga and yet kabuto “the brain” was concerned about him..hmmmmmmm, sounds kinda fishy.

    what do u guys think? hidden eyes, or secret alliances?

    p.s. as stated in the anime gintama, all men that wear shades are hitmen,,,lmao

  73. “Have we ever seen Stone Cold Steve Austin vs Goldberg……. no
    Austin vs Lesnar……… no
    Austin vs Hogan…….. no
    Better heel….. The Rock “: I have to say this is a lame arguement because it’s predicated on a fixed fight.

    “Hanzo and Danzo caused Nagato to activate his Rinnegan”: blatantly untrue.

    I’m not trying to take Jiraiya’s side here, just pointing out that your argument sucks. For instance Nagato didn’t conquer Konoha as Naruto is part of Konoha and “he lost point blank.” Hanzo was built up well, but in the end was an incredibly weak ninja as seen by the fact that he was taken out by Mifune, the leader of the folder characters. He had a huge weakness because of the poison sack and was only truly not worthy because he was “well protected” by other ninja. I’m truly surprised he beat the Sannin, But I have to conclude from what we know about that fight that they were Chunin if not Genin at the time.

    Also don’t forget that Jiraiya took on:

    Orochimaru (tied)
    Four-Tails Naruto (Subdued)
    Itachi and Kisame (Tied)

    I think all of those opponents are stronger than Ukitaka (which is anime only anyway) or an aged Hanzo. And I think that Jiraiya could easily destroy Konoha in the state it was in when Pein attacked even though the village knows WAY more about Jiraiya than they ever knew about Pein.

  74. “Hanzo was built up well, but in the end was an incredibly weak ninja as seen by the fact that he was taken out by Mifune, the leader of the folder characters.”

    Well hanzo, at the time he fought jiraiya, orochimaru and tsuande was considered one of the strongest ninja of his time. also during that battle with them, he took out an entire platoon of konoha ninja single handedly, jiraiya, oro and tsunade being the only survivors. even jiraiya was shocked when he heard he was defeated. he just let his skills and abilities become so dull by never fighting himself or practicing and staying hidden behind the cover of his security.

    “Hanzo and Danzo caused Nagato to activate his Rinnegan”

    mart is right about this statement, it is untrue. the konoha ninja that killed his parents in front of him caused him to activate his rinnegan. jiraiya, viewing him as the reincarnation of the sage of the six paths and the child of prophecy, trained him extensively to help him to control the power of his rinnegan.

    i cant exactly tell what the argument is about anymore, but if its about whether jiraiya had a big impact on the story or not, imo he did. he helped nagato to control his rinnegan, he tutored minato, he renewed the seal on naruto that kept the kyuubi contained in him after orochimaru messed with it, he encouraged tsunade to become hokage, he saved naruto from getting captured by itachi and kisame, if he never would have kept konoha informed about akatsuki they may have never known they existed until it was too late, hes the reason naruto was able to get nagato to trust him with finding a way to create true peace in the ninja world and he taught naruto how to use rasengan. imo he did leave a big impact on the story even if some of the things he did made a negative impact in the long run, he still left a big impact on the story nonetheless.

  75. in essence jiraiya is the will of konoha, and the ambassador for understanding and actions to help ensure peace. imo, from the moment sarutobi gave jiraiya his purpose (showing him the monkey, in that anime) jiraiya lived the most interesting life out of all the shinobi that i’ve read about in this manga. and hell yeah he made a big impact in this manga, more than anyone else. if u are talking about short term, no, its tobi and he announcement of war. but from the start, jiraiya lived a double life as sage and ninja, which improved relations with the toads, traveled the world searching for ways to bring about peace, met interesting ninjas along the way and learning their views of the war and coming to understand all sides, wrote books, trained all major characters good and bad, took 3yrs off to train 3 strange kids that he didn’t know all because he felt that they were in their current situation because of him and the war he was fighting. trained them in basics and advocating peace, which nagato took to the extreme, went back to konoha and trained minato, and during this time he thought the orphans dead, minato becomes hokage and jiraiya goes back on his quest for a way to end hatred, gets info that the orphans were dead, then minato died, then his teacher was murdered by his old friend (talk about bad luck) helped repel the invasion, took naruto and trained him in ways to protect himself against the coming enemies, oh, he did name naruto. went back to village to report that he found the leader of akatsuki, went to investigate, found out it was his former student whom he thought was dead, then he got killed. so yes jiraiya IS a major player in konoha period. he was the shining light trying to bring peace to the world, but he didnt succeed. but naruto inherited his will and tries his best because that is the way to go.

    now that that is out of the way, i think kisame w samehada should be up there with strong guys, he beat the hell out of bee. the fights with guy don’t count cause, the second fight was with zetsu clone, the fight with bee midway was a clone, but he handed bee his ass, and the final fight with guy wasn’t so much as a fight, it was more like he was trying to get the info he gathered to tobi. he was in stealth mode and shriveled up. but he’s dead, but i think he is a strong character with unique abilities.

  76. @Mart – You don’t get the point I was trying to make, why are you responding to my agrument if it sucks? I know wrestling is fixed, I’m not 5. I was responding to those who said SCSA was better then The Rock. I was saying who brought more to the table? I didn’t mention nothing about wins or loses. Like The Rock say “know your role”. You’re right Hanzo and Danzo did not cause Nagato’s rinnegan to activate, my bad, my mistake, I was wrong.

    “Orochimaru (tied)”

    When was this? Are you talking about pt1 when Orochimaru (who could not use his arms) had to go against Jiraiya & Tsunade?

    “Four-Tails Naruto (Subdued)”

    Almost getting killed by it Again it’s goes back to Minato, because Minato pass the special key to Jiraiya, so John where ever you are respond to that. You can’t give all the credit to Jiraiya.

    “Itachi and Kisame (Tied)”

    Sasuke beat Itachi, and Naruto defeated pain, big deal. and Guy defeated Kisame. If anyone say Itachi wasn’t trying to kill Sasuke, I could say the same thing about Itachi/Kisame & Jiraiya’s confrontation. Hell, Itachi was ordered to capture the 9 tails, but as we later found out he had other intentions

    “And I think that Jiraiya could easily destroy Konoha in the state it was in when Pein attacked even though the village knows WAY more about Jiraiya than they ever knew about Pein”

    Really??? I mean you had Konan and the other paths located all around Konoha whooping a$$, and you think Jiraiya could easily destroy Konoha by himself?? That’s a very strong opinion you just made, but hey you may have some people who would agree with you, after all you’re Walmart1.

    “he renewed the seal on naruto that kept the kyuubi contained in him after orochimaru messed with it” / “he taught naruto how to use rasengan”

    This is a impact left by Minato not Jiraiya, as stated before Minato passed down a special key to Jiraiya and taught him rasengan.

    Other than that I agree with you fastninja. To me he hasn’t left a bigger impact in this series compared to someone like Itachi, Orochimaru, Minato, or Nagato. I don’t think I have to write another paragrah on the impact they left, we all know what they have done.

  77. Was the 4th Tails not subdue by Jiraiya? he was, was it shown how? no. So that is open for speculation, but it was subdued. Frankly I don’t see why Jiraiya would use lethal force or anything of that sort to subdue his Godson, why would he hurt him, when he can subdue him more efficiently, be it through a handed down seal or defensive combat. Jiraiya was drugged, Tsunade was completly rusty from not fighting for MANY years and she was afraid of blood, but obviously you omitted those fact. Jiraiya has had a huge impact on the story, there is no use denying it. Also, even though I’m not a wrestling fanatic, I can easily say Stone Cold was better, he represented the wildly entertaining Attitude Era, while Rock, or Rocky Mavia as he was called back then, was supposed to represent the poster boy of WWF, he would have become the equivalent of today’s John Cena, it would have been a PG thing, if anything The Rock should thank Stone Cold for influencing him the way he has, to be a smartaleck, instead of a “golden boy” wrestler, a la Kurt Angle, so….”shut your mouth, cuzz Stone Cold said so”, see I can quote to.

  78. @Fleece
    I don’t think your arguments suck, just deeply flawed, and misguided, and very repetitive.

  79. Sigh stone cold steve austin/rock talk….. please this generation of wrestling has nothing on old school wrestling with the likes of the ultimate warrior, andre the giant, earthquake, legion of doom and undertaker when he first came on the scene… than again im not sure how many people here even know who the ultimate warrior and earthquake were lol. stone cold has nothin on macho man randy savage (who was my favorite wrestler followed closely by undertaker and bret hart)

  80. When was this?: a. where you mentioned when he was equally handicappeed, b. when they fought as Oro. left the village.

    “Again it’s goes back to Minato”: Actually Minato was the problem not the solution, it doesn’t state whether or not he used the seal to subdue Naruto, and either way it would still be him using the jutsu, it hardly matters who invented the jutsu, since I doubt Pein used any unique jutsu besides his revival jutsu (which might have been the sages anyway).

    “Really???”: Yeah… Look at how much damage Oro. did WITH Jiriaya there to stop his summons. Without someone there to take on the multiple frogs that Jiraiya can summon (because he has massive chakra reserves) then the village would be absolutely flattened. Gamabunta alone can take on Bijju competitively, you really think anyone in the village besides Naruto could fight him? Tsunade would be just as useless, and the village’s only half of a hope would be Katsuyu doing damage control, but even that would eventually become a forgone conclusion.

    “This is a impact left by Minato”: This is a fair argument, however, without someone around who is skilled enough to use these jutsu they are fairly useless and would be quickly forgotten.

    “why are you responding to my agrument if it sucks?”: Because I hate poorly stated arguments and I hate “pro” wrestling even more.

  81. Damn I’m late, I was going to correct myself before you did. Yes it does not state that the key given to Jiraiya surpressed the 9 tails. Jiraiya himself created his own method (Chakra supressing seal), Kakashi & Sakura weild it. Minato, Itachi, Nagato, Madara, Oro, Sasuke, and Kabuto are still better then Jiraiya.

    “a. where you mentioned when he was equally handicappeed, b. when they fought as Oro. left the village.”

    “They” fought Oro. You’re making it seem like they went one on one

    “it hardly matters who invented the jutsu”

    Again you’re not understanding the arguement I’m having with John. The Rasengan was invented by Minato, so that credit should be given to him not Jiraiya. We are talking about who left a impact, and I said Oro, Minato, and Nagato’s impact was greater then Jiraiya’s impact.

    “Yeah… Look at how much damage Oro. did WITH Jiriaya there to stop his summons.”

    Oro had help from Suna and sound 4 did he not? Do you think Jiraiya could have beaten Sarutobi like Oro did? I think not. I can see Jiraiya summoning his frogs and setting the village on fire, and getting Sarutobi in the frogs digestive system like he did Itachi and Kisame, but how would he pull it off? A random attack. I would have to say maybe on this one.

    “Because I hate poorly stated arguments and I hate “pro” wrestling even more.”

    What has pro wrestling ever done to you? Anime and “pro” wrestling made my childhood. What wer you doing during the late 90’s in early 00’s? Did you have basic cable growing up? I know I did, and as far as my agrument sucking, I remember when You stated that Madara was better then the Sage of 6 paths. I never stated that your arguement sucked then, even though it did. I had enough respect to hear you out.

    FLEECE

  82. @Token – I know Ultimate Warrior, but who is earthquake? Mancho Man was the coolest of em all. The Attitude era had more to offer, The Rock, Stone Cold, DX, Mankind, Kane, Kurt Angle, Edge and Christian. Not to mention NWO, Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, Booker T, and Brock Lesnar. Profanity, harcore matches, better female matches, and the storylines were great.

  83. “beaten Sarutobi like Oro did”: you misunderstand MY argument, I said Jiraiya could destroy the village when it was in the state Pein attacked it in (not Oro.) THOUGH I do think he could have beaten Sarutobi but then again was it Oro. or the Hokage’s who truly beat Sarutobi? If Sarutobi had been against those three and they weren’t immortal he wouldn’t have needed to kill HIMSELF. “Oro had help from Suna and sound 4” doesn’t really make a case against Jiraiya.

    “You’re making it seem like they went one on one”: It’s my opinion that Tsunade is utterly useless, plus half the time she was fighting Kabuto (and losing).

    “I never stated that your arguement sucked then, even though it did.” go for it: I do thing that Madara is stronger than the SoS since we have absolutely no idea what the Sage is capable of other than Sealing and Chibaku Tensei while Madara ) also capable of those things has a lot more to offer.

    Also I did have basic cable and dislike pro wrestling because I do actual wrestling and other martial arts and feel that pro wrestling has kept wrestling from being a more widespread sport because it is assosiated with pro wrestling and taken as a joke. Then whatever money and fan base that could have supported the sport of wrestling at a profesional level is mostly wasted on actors that have taken steroids.

  84. @Fleece
    The first part of your argument is deeply flawed and trollish, no proof behind your claim, so its irrelevant and will not be addressed. As for the rest it has already been dissected by WalMart1 so………lets address the day wrestling died, when it catered more to children then adults, and it turned from WWF to WWE, I grew out of it, therefore “pro” wrestling died, well at least for me.

  85. @John
    What are you talking about? I admitted to my flaws. I don’t see my agrument as trollish, I’m speaking my mind. You still haven’t responded because you can’t. No proof behind what cliams? I’ll show you proof just ask for it. The only reason why I brought up wrestling was to make comparisons, I also brought up DBZ to make comparisons but I guess that was overlooked.

    “you misunderstand MY argument, I said Jiraiya could destroy the village when it was in the state Pein attacked it in (not Oro.) THOUGH I do think he could have beaten Sarutobi but then again was it Oro.”

    Again Pein had his paths located all around Konoha, and he had Konan. Jiraiya destoying Konoha by himself, at the state Pein attacked it, I don’t see it happening. Kakashi would had survived way longer if Jiraiya attacked it, not to mention Jiraiya will have to go against all those clans in Konoha by himself. The difference between Oro & Pein’s invasion was that Oro “attacked” Konoha, Pein DOMINATED Konoha. You can come up with all the fanfic imagination theories you want to Mart. I don’t see it happening.

    “It’s my opinion that Tsunade is utterly useless, plus half the time she was fighting Kabuto (and losing).”

    Rewatch the fight man, Tsunade wasn’t completely useless. People hate because I’m a fan of Sasuke, but atleast Sasuke has wins under his belt, how many notable wins does Jiraiya have?

    “I do actual wrestling and other martial arts and feel that pro wrestling has kept wrestling from being a more widespread sport because it is assosiated with pro wrestling and taken as a joke”

    If you feel that way about “pro” wrestling, go sign a deal with UFC, and tell us all when you make your debut. If you are committed to wrestling and martial arts, take it to the next level, travel and get noticed, become the next Kimbo Slice Lol. WWE has been dead for nearly 8 years, but if you’re telling me you never watched or was entertained by it when it was alive and fresh, all I can say is you missed out

    We haven’t seen what what the Sage of 6 Paths could do, but to say Madara is stronger then SOSP is retarded because we don’t know what he is capable of. As far as we know the entire shinobi world came from this man’s scrotum, afterall he founded the art’s “Ninjutsu” and created the ninja world.

  86. @mart

    “I do thing that Madara is stronger than the SoS since we have absolutely no idea what the Sage is capable of other than Sealing and Chibaku Tensei while Madara ) also capable of those things has a lot more to offer.”

    this statement is a shocker indeed lol. i suppose the extent of the sage of the six paths powers are up for speculation, but to even question his power or say that another ninja is more powerful than him is pretty bold statement. i wasnt even there for the argument about this statement, but to me its crazy. before i go in further about why i think this statement is absurd, i’d much rather hear why you think this first.

    @john

    “lets address the day wrestling died, when it catered more to children then adults, and it turned from WWF to WWE, I grew out of it, therefore “pro” wrestling died, well at least for me.”

    couldnt agree more.

  87. Anyone who mentions Sasuke on any list in this thread needs to go play tag by themselves on a major interstate highway.

    Obviously Madara > all.

    Then Kabuto with Edo Tensei Summons. Madara can seal souls with the Path powers now, Edo Tensei is useless against him, and he more than likely copied it from Kabuto. If Kabuto was against a singular opponent rather than an army, no doubt he would win.

    Next come the Kage level ninjas. The 1st and 4th Hokages are on top here, no question. The 1st beat Tobi/Madara. Next would be the Eye guys Nagato and Itachi, which are TOO OVER-HYPED. The 1st and 4th would have kicked both of their asses seeing as Naruto beat the paths and Jiraya would have too had Jiraya actually tried to fight them rather than discover their secret (PAIN admitted this himself). Also he 1st’s skill would obviously beat Itachi who isn’t even on Tobi’s level, and the 4th’s speed dodges Amaterasu, and gets INSIDE Susanoo if Minato simply marks him. The only thing I think Itachi does that is extremely hard to counter is Tyukuyomi (sp?).

    The 2nd and 3rd Tsuchikages are a big threat here as well due to the sheer power of Dust Release and Flight, but the speed of someone like the 4th Hokage/Naruto/4th Raikage can easily best Dust release, as well as good Space/Time techniques. Jiraya fits here, below the Tsuchukages. After him, Orochimaru, the 3rd, 2nd Hokages and some of the current Kages and Kages past.

    After the Kage level ninjas, Naruto; he still needs the cooperation of the Fox itself. And after that Sasuke, but we still don’t know his EMS power yet.

    Who ever is listing Sasuke as above someone like Jiraya, please, go play tag on a busy interstate.

  88. “Kakashi would had survived way longer if Jiraiya attacked it”: The same ninja who nearly shit his pants when facing Orochimaru alone? I think Kakashi vs. Jiraiya would go something like this: Kakashi: Chidori… Jiraiya: Toad Oil Flame Jutsu… Jiraiya: Where’d he go? Kakashi: Currently a pile of ashes. Kakashi lacks the ability to survive even one of Jiraiya’s attacks. Do you really think he could fight Rasengan (the one Jiraiya used against Pein) with his version of Chidori (which he is limited to six of), That he could catch Jiraiya (who has sage speed) with his MS jutsu? Jiraiya can attack on the same level of jutsu as Pein. He doesn’t have the advantage of multiple bodies like Pein, but then again that can be remedied with shadow clones (since he definately has the stamina for it.) if need be. Not to mention he can have his Toads rampaging in other places as well.

    “Oro “attacked” Konoha, Pein DOMINATED Konoha.” It’s already been argued that the main reason Oro. didn’t “dominate” Konoha was because of Jiraiya (and that Sarutobi is at least 10x better than Tsunade). But besides that the only real difference was time. W/o someone like Sarutobi to stop him Oro. could have done much more damage.

    “Tsunade wasn’t completely useless”: She summoned Katsuyu and punched Oro. (which is near useless because of his odd body type, something she should have known). It’s one of the fights I’ve watched the most and each time I find her more useless.

    “how many notable wins does Jiraiya have?”: Who’s Sasuke beaten (of note) besides Deidara and Danzo? I guess Naruto at the valley of the end, but Naruto’s always been eratic as far as power levels go… I don’t count Oro. since he had ninja aids at the time. He never won against: Haku, Gaara, Itachi (had ninja aids AND staged the fight), the kage summit people. Not to get more into how I think battles would turn out but I think Jiraiya could beat Danzo and Deidara. The thing is that he always took the harder fight and went up against ninja that at the time they fought Jiriya were incredibly strong. Regardless of “winning” which is a rather relative term since unless you kill someone neither person truly won.

    “tell us all when you make your debut.”: Tuesday at 9:00 p.m. ECT. (just f**kin with you…). I’ve got better things to do with my time than join UFC (I own a small business) but that doesn’t mean I can’t hate WWE or RAW or whatever it’s called nowadays, I saw a “pro” wrestling promo (something, something, “Tough Enough” blah, blah, blah, “I’m a former teen mom that want’s to be a pro wrestler” or some utter nonsense.) a few weeks/months ago so I know some form of it is still alive…

    “afterall he founded the art’s “Ninjutsu” ” that doesn’t make him particuallarily skilled, it’s like attributing all of science to the caveman that discovered fire. The caveman probably didn’t know physics and just got lucky with two sticks. To say that in the hundreds of years since the SoS lived nothing has been done to surpass him, especially when people (Madara) have learned all of his abilities (most of which were simply Kekkai Genkai based) as well as added in their own skills (such as Edo Tensei and Madara’s teleporting technique) is what is truly rediculous. I don’t doubt that he was strong, I just don’t believe it either. There is little to no proof of what he was actually capable of, if he existed at all. So when I see what he can do in a fight (preferably one that isn’t shown in a madman’s story), and can evaluate him against others or on his own value, I’ll give him credit, but doing so current;y is simple subjectivity with no factual basis. You know absolutely nothing about the MAN (as in NOT the legend), so how can you say he is strong?

  89. “You know absolutely nothing about the MAN (as in NOT the legend), so how can you say he is strong?”

    the same can be said about tobi. he can teleport, but what else can he do? we havent seen tobi in a fight where we can evaluate him against his own or others values either. so giving him credit for techniques that we havent even seen him use or praising power that we dont even know the extent of is also subjectivity without factual basis. im not doubting tobi’s power either, but putting him above the sage of the six paths in terms of raw power, at the moment is ridiculous to me.

    list of jutsu (that are combat based) that we have SEEN tobi use and can prove:

    earth release: hiding like a mole
    exploding landmines
    space-time migration (teleportation/intangibility)
    summoning (kyuubi, gedo mazo)
    six paths of pain
    controlling kyuubi (unnamed genjutsu i suppose)

    all these techniques arent good examples to use when trying to prove the extent of tobi’s power. the abilities of someone and the capability of someone in a fight are two different things.

    this a list for TOBI. those who assume tobi is madara, thats a separate argument as well as a personal opinion.

  90. Don’t forget his ability to tear off his limbs. Like he did with Fuu/Torune. His body is somehow eaily recreate-able

    Madara/Tobi’s knowledge by far is his biggest weapon. He knows things almost no one knows about the inner workings of the Rinnegan and 10 Tails. Coupled with his haxy Space/Time Technique, and now with the Rinnegan, he is by far the most powerful character introduced in the series.

  91. also i think some of you guys underestimate kakashi. when it comes to raw power and chakra, he may not excel, but thats not his style. hes the analytical type. he analyzes his opponents strengths and weaknesses and chooses the best jutsu to use as well as when to attack, defend himself and counter his opponent and his sharingan just enhances his fighting style. with this series turning into dbz, ninja like kakashi who rely on tactics quick thinking and analytical skills understandably look weak when compared to the super saiyans kishi has running around (–>NARUTO<–). the thing that makes him a threat to almost everyone he faces is imo his disadvantage in chakra reserves. this leaves him no other option but to be super decisive and careful with the techniques he uses and even at such a disadvantage hes still renowned world wide as well as feared and respected by many including nagato and tobi.

    as far as kakashi versus jiraiya, mart i dont mean to go against all your opinions or take fleeces side all the time lol, but i think kakashi would give jiraiya a run for his money, but in the end his disadvantage in chakra would be his downfall going up against someone who has large chakra reserves, powerful/versatile attacks and experience like jiraiya.

  92. “Anyone who mentions Sasuke on any list in this thread needs to go play tag by themselves on a major interstate highway.”

    Lol at Sasuke haters. Sasuke is the reason everyone reads this manga like it or not. Anyone who puts Jiraiya in the same league as Nagato, Kabuto, or Madara need to play freeze tag by themselves on a railroad tack

    “The same ninja who nearly shit his pants when facing Orochimaru alone?”

    Don’t act like Oro ain’t the man, he was better then Tsunade and Jiraiya. I was feeling scared for Kakashi when he was confronted by Oro. You’re wildly underestimating Kakashi bro. If he faught Jiraiya you know damn well it would of been a much longer fight compared to Pein vs Kakashi. Kakashi is the student of Minato, weilder of a Mangekyou sharigan, the man with a thousand jutsu’s. If it wasn’t for Danzo using Kotoamatsukami, Kakashi would had been appointed Hokage. Kakashi is no push over, and pretty soon I think his role will become much greater in this war. I don’t see Jiraiya dominating Konoha by himself. Tsunade would summon her slugs to clash with his frogs, and the whole entire clan is going to taget Jiraiya. Jiraiya doesn’t have godly powers to wipe out a entire villiage like Pein did. Awake from you coma Mart and start using reason like you used to last year. At one point in time, you were one of the most logical writer on shannaro now it seems to me that you read to many fanfics. I like Neji but you would never hear me utter his name as a candidate for being “the strongest”. Man up and be honest with yourself.

    “It’s one of the fights I’ve watched the most and each time I find her more useless.”

    She stabbed Manda before it attacked Jiraiya. Stop making excuses, Jiraiya and Oro never went one on one in this series.

    “Who’s Sasuke beaten (of note) besides Deidara and Danzo?”

    It doesn’t matter. We seen alot more battles out of Sasuke compared to someone like Jiraiya. Tobi/Madara had more battles then Jiraiya. For Jiriaya to be mentioned with the likes of Nagato, Kabuto, and Madara, we really don’t have proof of why he should be considered the strongest. He had Sage mode, gigantic rasengan’s, toad summons, and still lost.

    You do realise the SOSP created the moon, defeated the Ten Tails according to Madara, and had the treasured tools he weilded which Kumo once possessed. Tobi/Madara claims to be the new SOSP (Rikudou), to say such things he must admire the sage. Tobi has a few notable wins under his belt and has definitely made a big impact. C’mon Mart you’re better then this son. You have become rusty on your knowledge of Naruo. The SOSP was called the “god of shinobi”.

    @fastninja, thanks for agreeing. Kakashi will last alot longer fighting Jiraiya compared to fighting Pein

  93. Fastninja: Tobi has used in a fight:
    a. Izanagi (he used it against Konan and has enough eyes available to use it quite often)
    b. Gedo Mazo Summoning (which he was shown to be able to control)
    c. His Teleporting Jutsu
    d. His bodies unique substance

    On these abilities alone I feel it’s fair to evaluate him since they are all really powerful.

    so if you wish to ignore:
    a. Six Paths formed from the bodies of the six dead Jinkuri
    b. His Renningan
    c. All the Bijju chakra he has in Gedo Mazo

    Against the Sos Six Paths known (and used in a fight jutsu) then I’m fine with that since the Sage has:

    a. nada
    b. zip
    c. nothing
    d. never-been-in-a-fight-no-jutsu

    “Sasuke is the reason everyone reads this manga like it or not”: Nope, I read it because I saw a promo for Gaara vs. Lee in the chunin exam. The first episode I saw Sasuke in was his fights against Gaara which he eventually lost.

    “mart i dont mean to go against all your opinions”: to the points you made I would just point out that your description of Kakashi minus the small chakra reserve also applies to Jiraiya on a bigger scale (being renown, being tactical, ect.)

    “Kakashi would had been appointed Hokage”: You mean the same position Jiraiya choose to decline after he was offered it two people before Kakashi?

    “need to play freeze tag by themselves on a railroad tack”: It sounds like you too want to do some ninja training…

    “you know damn well it would of been a much longer fight”: Pein’s fight lasted a decent amount of time a. because people protected Kakashi b. Pein only had two jutsu to use. c. there’s always some back and forth between ninja and one hit K.O.s are rare. But Jiraiya WOULD beat Kakashi because of the same things that lead Pein to victory. a. Kakashi’s lack of defence b. Kakashi’s stamina c. the use of large overscaled jutsu. Since the only one of those things Jiraiya would have to contribute to is the large overscaled jutsu I can’t see the fight another way. You can list Kakashi’s jutsu, but how is he going to use them against a powerhouse ninja in general? Your only example of Kakashi vs. a powerhouse is against Pein and his resounding loss only furthers my point that Kakashi has no way to counter that type of ninja.

    “according to Madara”: again hersay, until SHOWN. But even if taken at face value only goes so far. Is it hard to create a moon when you have the ultimate bijju as a chakra batery? Is it hard to use those treasured tools (that we don’t know he made) to seal a tailed beast (who lacks speach so is doomed to that one sword after a period of time)?

    “You have become rusty on your knowledge of Naruo. The SOSP was called the “god of shinobi”.” So was Hiruzen Sarutobi, how’s that for a fun fact about Naruto? Then again Hiruzen could probably take on Madara and Pein and the Jubbi single handedly, from what we know of him he has a counter to every jutsu, uses shadow clones to their maximum potential, and was feared by Madara who never once attacked the leaf while he was Hokage and instead choose to lurk in the shadows with his tail between his legs. (OBVIOUSLY SARCASM). Just because things are said about someone doesn’t make them true.

  94. you point out izanagi (can only be used by tobi once, is a rip off of the sages original “creation of all things” technique), six paths of pain, the rinnegan, summoning gedo mazo and bijuu chakra as enough to judge tobi’s strength, but did the sage not have the exact same powers? the techniques are powerful right? so according to your logic so is the sage. i mean, by listing the rinnegan your saying every ability of it is at tobi’s disposal, but the sage had all the same techniques and was the only ninja to truly master the rinnegan. now if you want to go off of what we’ve seen from tobi in combat, the three times we’ve seen him in it was his fight with minato, where he clearly was outclassed and underestimated minato, his encounter with konan, where he damn near died thinking he was superior and again underestimated his opponent, and his skirmish with fu and torune, where he was dumb enough to get infected by fu’s insects all the while knowing beforehand exactly what the technique is and he even saw it in action. your basically saying that powerful techniques makes whoever uses them powerful. if thats the case, watch the filler episodes in the anime. theres plenty of filler villains with crazy powerful large scale jutsu, doesnt mean they were powerful though.

  95. “but did the sage not have the exact same powers?” Did he? I can’t find the Manga showing him using them anywhere. I can find Madara SAYING that the sage used a form of Izanagi (it doesn’t say he actually had paths or Gedo Mazo either it just implies it since he had a Renningan) which didn’t neccesarily have the life saving abilities that Madara/Danzo’s did, but rather the ability to split the Jubbi.

    “where he was dumb enough”: He could afford to be because of his techniques. Because in all three of those fights he survived and killed the other person (or in Minato’s case made him choose death over the destruction of the village and the deaths of those he loved.) So it’s not that he thought he was superior, he WAS superior and his opponents ALMOST landed a fatal blow.

    First of all I took into account Madara’s tactical abilities when I judged him in my post way up there. I didn’t say he was perfect, but again, how can you judge the SoS when we have no idea how tactical he was. As the first ninja he didn’t have a whole lot of competition. He could have been insanely powerfull by birth (his Kekkai Genkai just happened to activate) but he was actually mentally handicapped.

    “your basically saying that powerful techniques makes whoever uses them powerful”: I’m saying Madara’s techniques make him too powerfull to fail. He has strong offence and defence and uses them in ways his opponents don’t expect. Plus he usually keeps at least one jutsu or move up his sleve so that when people get in a “cheap shot” type attack by figuring out his moves he STILL comes out on top.

  96. “I’m saying Madara’s techniques make him too powerfull to fail.”

    kabuto stopped tobi in his tracks when he went to attack him by summoning a dead person. now it may not be clear why this immediately made tobi cooperative, but if he was all powerful as you say he is, why didnt he just kill kabuto then and there so he would have nothing to worry about? and dont say because kabutos help would benefit him because he was going to march off to war regardless if kabuto had shown up or not.

    “Plus he usually keeps at least one jutsu or move up his sleve so that when people get in a “cheap shot” type attack by figuring out his moves he STILL comes out on top.”

    did i miss any chapters? how many fights have you seen him in for you to make that assumption? you talk as if you’ve seen him fight a bunch of times and you know his fighting style. he did that one time against konan and what you call a cheap shot are direct hits which were able to be made because of him thinking hes almighty. minato hit him with a clean rasengan that wasnt a cheap shot and konan trapped him in an explosion which wasnt a cheap shot either. his space-time technique was figured out twice and he paid the price for it just as any other ninja would for using the same technique too many times.

    just because we havent seen the sage in action at all doesnt mean hes weak or isnt capable of certain things until proven otherwise. tobi hasnt shown much for anyone to be able give him a fighting style let alone tactics such as always keeping a trick up his sleeve, and if hes too powerful to fail then whats the point of him keeping tricks up his sleeve anyway?

  97. @Kisuzachi, on August 11, 2011 at 1:24 am
    I don´t know if someone pointed that out allready, but ju put Sarutobi on tier 3 and another kages like Onoki and Raikage on tier 2.. But Kabuto stated that Sarutobi was the strongest of the 5 kages: http://www.mangareader.net/93-145-3/naruto/chapter-140.html
    So he should be on tier 2 like the rest of them..

  98. And.. Nagato is probably the Strongest.. But the best Ninja is Jiyraia beacuse he is also a extremly god teacher, he theached the strongest Nagato and strong ninjas like Konan, Minato and Naruto, so he´s the BEST ninja there is if you look it ass all-around ability

  99. I’m not taking nothing away from Madara because Nagato & Kisame respected him, and Itachi knowing he was a bigger threat then Orochimaru did absolutely nothing to stop him (planting Amaterusu in Sasuke’s eyes failed). The SOSP was the 10 tailed Jinchuriki for god sakes, he had rinnegan, and he weilded the treasure tools. Him creating the moon was the Rinnegan power NOT the tailed beast power.

    Hiruzen wanted Oro to be Hokage over Jiraiya, so let that one sink in jus a bit. Sasuke man handled Gaara through out their entire match, let them face each again and Gaara’s a dead man. I agree on one thing, “Just because things are said about someone doesn’t make them true”, that’s why I don’t believe in everything Itachi say, because he’s two faced.

  100. “but if he was all powerful as you say he is”: Because Kabuto could reanimate whoever before Madara got the chance and that person could potentially f**ck up Madara’s plans. It could be anything and until we know what/who it is, you can’t really use it against Madara.

    “konan trapped him in an explosion”: By observing him multiple times and then carefully planning a trap in advance. That isn’t a cheap shot? He uses one jutsu multiple times so that people figure it out and make the mistake of thinking they’ve figured him out, while really he’s messing around and has several other equally powerful jutsu to use in just such an occasion. We’ve seen him fight at least three times (which is a considerable amount in the Naruverse) and he’s done it on each occasion. You can’t claim that he “has a superior additude” in all his fights and then say that I can’t claim he IS superior in all of his fights. “if hes too powerful to fail then whats the point of him keeping tricks up his sleeve anyway”: Because that’s what makes him too powerful to fail. His go-to jutsu (teleporting) is strong but it’s not his only trick because if it were he wouldn’t last long.

    “just because we havent seen the sage in action at all doesnt mean hes weak or isnt capable of certain things until proven otherwise.” He is innocent until proven guilty. He isn’t strong until you can prove he’s strong he has an undefeated record, because he’s never fought another ninja. I argued on this site that various people were strong before they were actually proven to be (Madara, Kabuto, and such) and the response I usually got was that I couldn’t prove what they are capable of. Now that I can, I hold others to the same standard. I’m not saying he isn’t strong, I’m saying he’s an exception circumstance in debating who is stronger since you know nothing about him.

    I think you and fleece misunderstand what I’m arguing. I’m NOT arguing that Jiraiya is the strongest and I’m NOT arguing that the SoS is weak. I’m saying the Jiraiya is strong, and definately stronger than all of Konoha (at the time when Pein attacked) and that we need more info on the SoS before we can say he is/isn’t the strongest since we no nothing about how he fights/thinks/uses his considerable power.

  101. “Hiruzen wanted Oro to be Hokage over Jiraiya”: you missed that me bringing up Hiruzen was a joke…

    “Sasuke man handled Gaara through out their entire match”: like in the forest when Sasuke said “this guy is a monster,” nearly wet his pants, then tried to attack, failed, was paralyzed by the curse seal and would have died had Naruto not saved him? Sasuke WOULD kill Gaara now, I have no problem with that, I’m simply saying that I watched naruto for completely different reasons and they certainly weren’t Sasuke.

    I have to disagree with most of this: “The SOSP was… “: The Jubbi was killing him, we have no idea how skilled he was with the Renningan, and he had the Jubbi in him when he created the moon be reasoning of he wasn’t dead yet and bijju exctraction is a one way ticket to the afterlife.

  102. As people putting Sage of six path on the list with out even se anything of him.. How about Kakashi father the White fang? he was in the same league as the Sannin. http://www.mangareader.net/93-245-17/naruto/chapter-240.html

  103. All the Jiraiya bashers seriously have never read this manga before, I don’t even need to get into detail as the evidence is there. I do agree that Nagato is quite possibly the strongest character revealed, and that Naruto never beat Nagato, but he did defeat the 6 Paths of Pain. This is something I have no doubt Jiraiya was capable of if he had known the secret. Nagato’s overall lack of mobility was a huge weakness, but when you have enough chakra to decimate Konoha, fight Sage-Mode/6 Tailed Naruto and then revive all the victims of your previous attack, you are one mean motherf*cker. I doubt neither Jiraiya nor Naruto would have been able to take him, especially with Konan there. I wouldn’t be surprised if the paper tree Nagato and Konan where holed up in was her 6 billion paper jutsu just in case. I also believe Jiraiya would have been able to destroy Konoha singlehandedly. 3 of his toads were strong enough to take out the summons which caused the majority of the damage before Pain wrecked the village with an immense Shinra Tensei.

    I also disagree with those who said Itachi was lying about Jiraiya. When it came to battles Itachi never underestimated his opponents, nor overestimated them. He said Kisame wouldn’t be able to take Jiraiya and that the best he could do would merely be a stalemate. If the two had attacked together they would have doubtlessly taken him, but as we all know Itachi had an ulterior motive. Truth be told, if Itachi had fought Jiraiya he may have succumbed to his illness in that battle. As no doubt we would have seen the much earlier debut of Sage Mode, which would have given Jiraiya partners in Pa & Ma which would have rendered genjutsu almost useless unless he would have been able to trap them all in one, something I doubt due to Jiraiya being skilled and smart enough to know the damage Itachi’s genjutsu could cause.

    As for Sasuke fans, please stop your pitiful case. Sasuke had the elemtental advantage over Deidara luckily as C4 would have raped him had he not had lightning chakra. To say Sasuke beat Itachi is not accurate. It is much more accurate to say Sasuke emerged as the victor in their battle to the death, as in no way did Sasuke kill him, nor did he even inflict life-threatening injuries. When that fight ended, Sasuke had just wet his pants at the sudden realisation that he is STILL not yet ready for Itachi, and Itachi still managed to pull a fuinjutsu out his ass despite being on death’s door. I give Sasuke props for surviving his bout with the 5 Kage, but Onoki was about to turn him to dust and only Madara could save him from that. Gaara even managed to block Amaterasu, and if A hadn’t attacked so recklessly he may have pulled out a definitive victory. Sasuke DID defeat Danzo, something I do respect him for, no excuses, he outsmarted Danzo and showed him the one thing Kakashi learned the hard way, never, NEVER attempt to have a battle of the eyes with a true inheritor of the Sharingan. Despite all this, Sasuke will be proved to be 1 of the top 2 characters by the time he comes against Naruto.

    I also agree that Tsunade is useless and that Orochimaru would have been murdered by the Sandaime, if not for the Edo Tensei aka Super Cheat Jutsu. The Edo Tensei allowed him to emotionally weaken Hiruzen even more than he already was and forced him to sacrifice himself in order to gain a stalemate. (Orochimaru never beat the Sandaime, if he had he wouldn’t have retreated afterwards.) People need to stop thinking that one character won a fight simply because they left the battlefield alive.

    MY TOP TEN (Characters who have actually been alive during storyline)

    1. Madara Uchiha
    2. Nagato
    3. Kabuto
    4. Itachi Uchiha
    5. Jiraiya
    5. Naruto Uzumaki
    6. Sasuke Uchiha
    7. Onoki
    8. A
    9. Kisame w/ Samehada
    10. Hiruzen Sarutobi

    TOP TEN DOA
    1. Hashirama Senju
    2. Madara Uchiha
    3. Nagato
    4. Minato Namikaze
    5. Mu/ Nidaime Mizukage
    6. Kabuto
    7. Hiruzen Sarutobi (At Peak)
    8. Itachi Uchiha
    9. Hanzo (At Peak)
    10. Naruto Uzumaki

  104. I never posted anything to do with the Sage of the Six Paths simply because while I do believe him to be the strongest character in Naruto ever he is one of those Godlike figures whose name shouldn’t even be involved these discussions as the feats ascribed to him make it impossible for any ninja mentioned in the entire storyline to even dream of taking him on. As Nagato stated, his power pales in comparison the that of the Sage of the Six Paths. When a definite top ten character says that, it’s best we just leave him out….

  105. I guess I should post a list too.

    Top 10
    (Characters alive during the story)

    1. Madara Uchiha
    Or Tobi for those who still doubt him. He is simply the most powerful character in the series, but not unbeatable. His Space/Time Migration Technique can be countered by extreme speed and large Area-based attacks, something that Naruto with Shadow Clones and 9-tails Mode can pull off, the Mizukage with her Poison Mist, or even Gaara on a sandy battlefield. But with access to tailed beasts 1-7 and the Rinnegan, I have no idea how Naruto will beat him.

    2. Nagato
    The powers of the Rinnegan are astounding. Nagato could probably finish off Madara had he decided to as he is making quick work of Naruto, Itachi, and Killer B. Also, he is being overrated, He would’ve died to Amaterasu had he not had the regeneration power of Edo Tensei.

    3. Kabuto
    Edo Tensei hax. Without it, he doesn’t even make the list. I want to see the other justu up his hand though.

    4. Jiraya
    Jiraya is way too underestimated by you guys. He is stronger than Pain, as he decided to find their secret out at the end of their fight rather than work to defeat Pain. Simply knowing how Pain operated, he would’ve easily done him in. The real Nagato is no match for him too.

    5. Itachi Uchiha
    What can I say? He is Itachi. He has proven himself in the recent chapters as a force to be reckoned with even after the grave. Now that he has an Edo Tensei regenerative body, he is almost unstoppable.

    6. Killer B
    I put Killer B on a list like this for a few reasons. Essentially, he is a better Naruto. Full cooperation with his beast, almost as quick as the Raikage, genjutsu immunity, and deadly Taijutsu. If you guys can put Naruto on your lists, Killer B should be on there too.

    6. Naruto Uzumaki
    The title guy. He has grown a lot recently. With his new 9 Tails Mode, he has speed, and all his previous power with Sage Mode, summons, Rasengan variations, Wind Release and the like. Naruto is powerful.

    7. Onoki
    Dust Release is beast. He could easily give characters ranked above him here a run for their money, seeing how quickly he activated it against Sasuke. Flight is interesting, only a few characters have been granted the ability and none are as good as Onoki’s flight. He has pretty good Ninjutsu, 3 Natures. His weakness seems to be in Taijutsu, but he doesn’t have to fight close in when he can fly.

    8. A
    The Raikage is below his brother for a couple reasons. His straight taijutsu approach has weaknesses that are easily exploitable, and Chakra is large, but not as much as the Jinchiriki or others. If he had a more analytic approach and some good supplementary techniques like Shadow clones he would be awesome. Also he needs long range techniques. I wouldn’t be surprised if he landed a hit on Madara though.

    9. Sasuke Uchiha
    As much as I hate him, he has to be recognized. He did beat Danzo, someone who essentially had 15 or so “Video game lives” with Izanagi. But he lost to Killer B, The Kages, and needed outside intervention from Zetsu and Madara to stay alive. He also has weak chakra reserves. His power with EMS is yet to be seen though, and he may be upgraded if he gets Space/Time migration like Madara.

    10. Toss up.
    Either Orochimaru, The 3rd Hokage, or one of the current Kages.

    I will post another Top 10 List soon of all time ninjas.

  106. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, jiraiya is on a whole other level than kakashi, but itachi was willing to take kakashi away, kakashi was still a vital ninja for konoha and I believe killing or taking kakashi away would have been a huge loss for konoha to, so I’m not entirely sure that the reason he didn’t try an kill jiraiya was because it would hurt konoha

  107. @Minatofan
    Or Itachi did not want to risk dying before he had a chance to set his plans for Sasuke into motion, Kakashi is no threat for Itachi, Jiraiya is like major danger to Itachi, I’ve said this before.

    Wish I had more time for this, University is draining my time, there always weekends, I guess.

  108. @John I agree with you that jiraiya is a big danger to itachi, I just don’t like ppls excuse that itachi didn’t won’t to battle jiraiya because it would’ve hurt konoha because I that’s the case he wouldn’t have wanted to take kakashi away

  109. “But Kabuto stated that Sarutobi was the strongest of the 5 kages: http://www.mangareader.net/93-145-3/naruto/chapter-140.html

    No. Kabuto said the leader of Konoha is the strongest. Konoha was the strongest Village back then. It’s more of a military power thing than anyone’s individual power. How can Sarutobi be higher when he couldn’t even beat Orochimaru (by his own admission)?

    “Jiraiya passing on infromation to Konoha was vital, but he died in a fair fight. ”

    Come on Fleece, that fight wasn’t fair. Jiraiya was fighting in Pain’s Village so Pain couldn’t go all out, lest he destroys Amegakure. It wasn’t fair, for Pain.

    “he was to my knowledge one of the first ppl to use summoning without a contract, and got reversed summoned to the toad world, where he trained twice as hard”

    Anime filler.

    “Jiraiya left those promising students of his, Nagato, Minato, Konan, Naruto, therefore ”

    What, Yahiko gets no love? The founder of akatsuki gets no love? Goddamn Kishi bringing all these new fodder ninja but not developing Yahiko.

    “Have we ever seen Stone Cold Steve Austin vs Goldberg……. no
    Austin vs Lesnar……… no
    Austin vs Hogan…….. no
    Better heel….. The Rock “

    Have we ever seen the Rock break his neck in the middle of the ring and finish his match… no
    Have we ever seen the Rock drink enough beer to destroy 5 average men’s livers… no
    Has the Rock ever escaped being crucified by the Undertaker (the greatest wrestler of all time)… no

    They’re both awesome. They both dominated the greatest era of wrestling ever, the Attitude Era. But Stone Cold was the face of the WWE/WWF back then and the Rock was the second biggest guy.

    “Also don’t forget that Jiraiya took on:

    Orochimaru (tied)
    Four-Tails Naruto (Subdued)
    Itachi and Kisame (Tied)”

    Orochimaru (tied, but he was still well off enough to escape)
    Four-Tails Naruto (he was left grievously injured – Orochimaru was playing with Naruto in that form and Pain beat the 6 tails easily)
    Itachi and Kisame (they decided not to bother with fighting him)

  110. “lest he destroys Amegakure”: I don’t think Pein cares about killing a few folder ninja he can later revive. I think the only real danger would be his real body getting attacked by a juutsu shockwave. That said Jiraiya doesn’t have a counter for Chibaku Tensei.

  111. “I don’t think Pein cares about killing a few fodder ninja he can later revive.”

    It’s clear he cared about his Village enough to have it under constant protection and besides, that jutsu is clearly something he didn’t use often.

    Pain couldn’t use a Shinra Tensei that was too powerful or it would destroy a lot of Amegakure, he couldn’t use his lasers and huge rockets and as a matter of fact, he didn’t use his best jutsus either. The only thing Jiraiya fought were summons and black rods. At several points, Human Realm could’ve ripped out his soul.

    @Mart, the Sage’s “Izanagi”, could form life from his mere thoughts. He could materialize living creatures with a thought. That is how powerful he was with his Rinnegan. He had enough chakra to create the moon with Chibaku Tensei. He was powerful enough to overpower the Juubi. No ninja is on his level.

  112. “That is how powerful he was with his Rinnegan”: a. in the legend b. that doesn’t mean he could save himself a la Madara’s Izanagi c. He used the Jubbi chakra to do so. It doesn’t have much practical application unless he feels like reviving the Do-do. It’s not like he could create the bijju on a whim and use them for battle, he could only create things based on what chakra he had available and he died in the process, giving him “death grip” via ninjutsu abilities.

    My main point though is that this is all on the say-so of Madara, we have no way of knowing if a. he actually existed b. he actually created the moon (or whether his role in creating it was exagerated, for instance he could have created a small chibaku tensei that grew based on it’s own gravity) c. The Jubbi fought him at all (he could have just been sleeping and the sage sealed him before they fought.)

    “No ninja is on his level”: because he is a myth not a ninja. I’ll accept his strength when we see it for ourselves otherwise he is as much a shinobi god as Sarutobi was.

  113. Not to mention that Minato sealed the Kyubbi but he didn’t exactly overpower it or beat it in a fight. He just used a jutsu tailored to fit that exact situation.

    The reason I agreed with your tier 0 assignment for the sage and the jubbi and then stated that Naruto and Sasuke should also be there is because there is no way to know what those people are actually capable of.

  114. “he is a myth not a ninja.”

    how would you explain the existence of bijuu, the existence of the rinnegan, sharingan and byakugan and the reason for the uchiha vs. senju feud?

  115. “there is no way to know what those people are actually capable of.”

    then wouldnt it be wrong to say someone is stronger just because you havent seen what they can do? if theres no way of knowing, then the sage shouldnt even be mentioned when it comes to whos strongest and not because hes the original “ninja god”, but because we most likely wont ever see what he was capable of.

  116. “the existence of bijuu”: the same way I explain giant talking toads, they happen to exists in the Naruverse, and we’ve seen them.

    “the existence of the rinnegan, sharingan and byakugan” As Kakashi did… with genetics. That rather than kekkai genkai abilities getting weaker over time, ninja constantly focusing chakra into their eyes created Doujutsu.

    “the reason for the uchiha vs. senju feud?”: This doesn’t have anything directly to do with the sage even in Madara’s story. They were simply two clans who compeated over the same jobs in the ninja world because they were the best.

    “wrong to say someone is stronger just because you havent seen what they can do?”: By that logic you could claim that Iruka is the strongest ninja: “You don’t know that he’s not capable of using the Renningan in a fight and that his powers with it don’t far exceed the sages because you’ve never seen him using a renningan”

    “if theres no way of knowing, then the sage shouldnt even be mentioned”: That was my original arguement, notice he isn’t mentioned in my evaluations.

  117. “if theres no way of knowing, then the sage shouldnt even be mentioned”: That was my original arguement, notice he isn’t mentioned in my evaluations.

    alright then as far as the sage goes ill throw up the white flag here, but before i do…

    the reason for the uchiha vs. senju feud?”: This doesn’t have anything directly to do with the sage even in Madara’s story. They were simply two clans who compeated over the same jobs in the ninja world because they were the best.

    i take it you know everything that tobi has said about the sage and his two sons and you say this because its unclear if the sage really existed or not, right?

    “the existence of bijuu”: the same way I explain giant talking toads, they happen to exists in the Naruverse, and we’ve seen them.

    giant toads, snakes, dogs etc. are actual living creatures. bijuu are chakra monsters made of nothing more than pure chakra. how would you explain that? im content with their just being giant talking animals in the naruverse, but that same excuse doesnt fit well with bijuu. these are chakra monsters capable of destroying villages in one concentrated attack. if their existence isnt the work of the sage, then they deserve a more complex elaborate explanation seeing as how chakra makes the naruworld go round.

  118. “you say this because its unclear if the sage really existed or not, right?”: Not quite, it wasn’t that the feud between the uchiha and senju was caused by the Sage. There were multiple generations inbetween the sage and Madara Uchiha/Hirishima Senju’s fight. I doubt that the reason they fought was simply on the Sage’s say so. While he caused them to become seperate entities that eventually transformed over time into the two clans, he wasn’t the direct reason they fought (profit/survival was). They feuded because no one else could compete with them.

    “bijuu are chakra monsters” They have physical form, they speak/eat/live, I don’t see any difference between them and other animals other than they happen to have more chakra. As far as them “deserving” an explanation, that’s not really not an arguement that proves anything, and is the same arguement used by most religions, in that you should believe in the myth because it is an appealing story that vaguely answers hard questions without providing proof. I’m sorry for expressing doubt that these bijju were created by an omnipowerful superhuman on the word of someone clearly crazy, but I simply don’t want to be a part of an SoS religion. Nothing “deserves” an explanation, it either has an acurate one or it doesn’t.

  119. The way i see it, even though we havent seen much(or at all for some) of ninjas like the first two hokages and the sage, wouldnt it be fair to include them as far as the strongest ninjas concerned? After all, Some of yall are already putting kabuto on a pedestal because of edo tensi even though it has one huge drawback: the summons have to be dead already. The summons can’t be used if hypothetically yall imagining a big ass ninja tournament and wondering who would come on top as the head honcho.

  120. “the summons have to be dead already”: There are enough people already dead for him to use them.

    “The summons can’t be used if hypothetically yall imagining a big ass ninja tournament”: I don’t see why not. If you were to say that he would be facing the dead ninja in the tournament and that in the tournament he wouldn’t have the ability to summon them I would argue that he can’t fight dead bodies so he and his undead opponents would have to come from different universes where he would summon from a universe in which his summons were already dead (the current naruverse) and his opponent would be from a past naruverse. therefore no conflict.

    “wouldnt it be fair to include them as far as the strongest ninjas concerned?”: Nope because they didn’t earn that spot. They haven’t SHOWN that they are the strongest ninja in the series or that they deserve to be considered. I just explained this in respect to the sage, and frankly I don’t feel either of the two hokages are worth their individual explanation. From what we know of them they have nothing on the top ninja (Madara, Nagato, Kabuto, Naruto, Sasuke ect.)

  121. all we know of the first two hokages powers is that hashirama had mastery of the wood release and was supposedly the most poweful ninja of his time and tobirama was supposedly the most powerful water release user in ninja history and, according to minato, was very proficient with space-time jutsu. given the fact that the only fighting we’ve seen from them was when oro summoned them against sarutobi and at the time they began attacking him oro had already eliminated their personalities, that obviously doesnt count. a ninja does have to earn the right to be mentioned in a “whos strongest” conversation by showing what they’re capable of.

  122. neither is kabuto, since anything on his abilites,in some ways including the edo tensi, is mostly speculation anyway.

  123. “by showing what they’re capable of.”: True, but so far they haven’t been shown to do anything other than what they did as Oro.’s summons.

    “is mostly speculation anyway”: So we judge him based on the non-speculative parts of his ability: ex. he can/has summoned Nagato, Itachi, the Seven Swordsmen of the mist, and multiple kages. On that alone he can compete for the title of “strongest”.

  124. ITS OUT GUYS- MAKE A BANNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/24027713/1

  125. It’s no way in hell Mart can put Jiraiya over Nagato after this chapter! And for those who think Itachi was going to kill Kakashi, reread the manga, rewatch the anime. Itachi clearly had other other itentions. Hopefully Jiraiya is never mentioned on these type of post again. New chapter is out, and we’re getting closer to main events. I can’t wait to see what Madara has planned, and what’s next for Kabuto, and most importantly Itachi’s seeing Sasuke again

    FLEECE

  126. @Fleece
    Jiraiya is still better…still mentioned.

  127. @John
    You and your small army, the majority knows Nagato is better. Jiraiya isn’t worth arguing anymore. Like I said, you can put him in your top 10, but he’s no where in hell top 5, so stop mentioning this loony toon bafoon character.

    FLEECE

  128. Haters will hate, he is still in contention no question for top ninja, my opinions are just as valid as a anyone else’s, and majorities are not always right.

    JOHN

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