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Naruto Chapter 510 – SIX HUNDRED BILLION???

naruto-retro1Post Author: Bob

Well holy crap, I didn’t get to read this week’s chapter until just now because of life stuff, but wow did I wish I had done it sooner. This chapter was packed with info about not only Madara, but also hints at the links between the Sharingan, Rinnegan, Sage, Senju clan, Uchiha clan and who knows what else. It’s gonna take me a while to digest this all, but I’ll post what ideas popped into my head since I don’t want to delay this post if I don’t have to.


Konan’s display of raw firepower in this chapter should shut any fan boy up who has dissed about female Naruto character being weak. Sure most of them aren’t frontline fighters, but just because they’re not out there swinging their fists around every week, it doesn’t mean they’re weak shinobi. Heck, this chapter is a perfect reminder to us all to never underestimate a pissed off lady — because she’ll rip you a new one when you least expect it. Madara learned this the hard way, I guess all these years of being nearly untouchable and unchallenged has made him too conceited. For the first time ever since maybe when he fought Minato, Madara has his back against the wall since he’s forced into a situation designed specifically to counter his dimensional transfer abilities. Props ought to be given to Konan for pulling this off, but you have to wonder how she even managed to execute such a broken jutsu… I mean seriously, SIX HUNDRED BILLION explosive tags? I think we all need to take a second to fully comprehend the magnitude of that number. Well, it’s pointless to go into the logistics of getting 600 billion copies of any object in a manga, so let’s just accept it for what it is and move on. What Konan’s technique did reveal to us is a great deal about the inner workings of Madara’s dimensional phasing abilities.

So here’s what we know:
– Madara is able to absorb other objects to another dimension, but must solidify his own body before doing so.
– Madara is able to absorb himself (he must solidfy himself prior to doing this), this is how he can ‘warp’ to different locations near instantaneously.
– Madara can absorb and transport others in the same way, but always takes longer to absorb something else relative to absorbing himself.
– Madara is able to freely switch between absorbing something (solidifying himself) and making himself intangible — this occurs instantaneously.
– Madara can only remain intangible for about five minutes at a time, after which he is forced to solidify.

It seems Konan had observed Madara very closely while in Akatsuki, this is strong indication that she and Nagato never trusted him in the first place. And it appears that Madara felt the same way about Nagato and Konan, his line at the end about Nagato smirking at him even after betraying him indicates that their past cooperation fragile at best. Madara’s comment shows he may have felt belittled by Nagato at times. Nagato was probably the only Akatsuki member Madara could be fully manipulate due to the power of the Rinnegans. I trust Madara’s words from last chapter stating he was the one who gave Nagato his Rinnegans and set him on this path, but I get the feeling Nagato also became quite a thorn in Madara’s thigh when he started acting on his own accord. His betrayal after the events at Konoha must have been the last straw for Madara, but I doubt he was completely shocked at the turn of events.

After seeing how knowledgeable Madara was about Danzou’s Izanagi, it probably didn’t come as a surprise to many of us that he could pull one off too. Madara’s revelation of his second Sharigan was a surprise move, otherwise using the Izanagi in that situation would just pull him out of the fire but leave him permanently blind. But then again, after seeing his huge Sharingan collection, was there any doubt he would have more than one operational eye? Madara boosted about his Izanagi being the more complete form compared to Danzo’s jerry rigged version, he adds that this is because he possess the combined powers of the Uchiha and Senju — essentially obtaining the power of the Sage of Six Paths. However, I doubt the Sage had to suffer the handicap of having his eyes blinded every time he used Izanagi, so Madara is not quite to that level yet. Madara claims he fought Hashirama Senju to obtain the power of the Senju clan (now I Really want to know exactly what happened in that epic fight), but clearly that was the only the first step of his plan as his goal hasn’t come to fruition even after so many generations. He mentions that two of the paths (Uchiha and Senju) are now one, and refers to Nagato (his Rinnegan) as the third path to the sages of the six paths. Obtaining the combined power of all the Bijuu in the form of the Ten-tails must be another path — that leaves us with two more paths, ie. two more objectives Madara must complete before his Moon’s Eyes Plan comes to pass. I get the feeling that Naruto and Sasuke are each at the center of one of the remaining paths…

I just have a few minor points to make so I’ll just summarize them here:
– Madara’s anger at having Konan call him ‘the darkness/evil’ was an interesting scene that shines some light on the dynamics of his character. It shows that despite all the sacrifices and suffering he’s caused to the world, Madara still believes he is doing the right thing for the world. I guess one can do no evil if one believes his cause is just.
– Nagato… orange hair… an Uzumaki… what? Stop the presses! Okay, this just opens up a whole new realm of theory possibilities, but I’ll leave that for you guys in the comments. I can see people trying to link every orange/red haired character in the Naruverse to the Uzumaki clans now, lol, let the fun begin.
– I know Madara said he would kill Konan after learning Nagato’s body’s location, but something in the back of my mind tells me she might be still alive since she wasn’t shown actually being killed (physically or mentally). My fear though is that she might return as one of Kabuto’s undead summons — which I really hope doesn’t happen.
– Why did Konan leave Nagato’s body in the open like that? *Face-palm*, score another point for the bad guys 😦

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151 Responses

  1. This was an awesome chapter, and great anaylis bob, but I’d like to hear your theories.

    I stated before that it was prematture to believe that Tobi had only 1 eye. I knew it was more likely that he did have another eye hidden under that mask.

  2. as always, great summary bob!

  3. i still dont believe tobi when he says he madara, and if he is the part about him only fighting the 1st to gain his powers is bs. i think he just got his ass kicked and was forced to use izanagi

  4. Good post Bob. When Madara talked way back when about obtaining the perfect body this must’ve been what he meant, putting all six pieces together to basically attain the power of the Sage. I wonder how he obtained the Senju powers though, did he absorb Hashirama or what? I mean the whole village thinks he won the fight so it’s safe to assume he came back to the village after the fight alright so what the hell happened? Also, Nagato being an Uzamaki was a turn I don’t think anyone saw coming. Man, that family sure has some power in it’s genepool.

  5. @fire fist

    im guessing he probably intergrated some of the 1st dna after he died just like danzo. depended on when he did it he could have had orochimaru do it.

  6. I guess that clarifies what Danzo and Madara discussed at the Uchiha Massacre… (you take half the eyes, I take the other half).

  7. First kunoichi FAIL!!!!!! how can you go up against a powerful sharingan user and not be prepared for a genjutsu. And then not destroying Nagato’s eyes, or having multiple people hide it in case your captured and tortured. Plus your the leader of the village wheres your jounin backup, so you don’t have to use up all your power? Or how about this one, knowing you and your jounin can’t handle Tobi, give the rinnengan eyes to the Leaf village.

    And then Tobi fighting the 1st Hokage and deliberately losing just to get some of his cells/dna, that’s the very definition of BS. Tobi if you are Madara, you got your ass handed to you, you will be for ever known as Hashirama’s bitch. Deal with it.

    Nagato an Uzamaki, now that’s a revelation. I hope I’m not the only one that sees the connection. Nagato Uzamaki was raised in the Hidden Rain village and his clan is from the Eddy Village of the fallen Land of Whirlpool. People I’m telling you their is a connection with all of these “water villages. And I’m predicting their are more Uzamakis in the Hidden Mist, Rain, Whirlpool & Cloud villages.

    On the chapter out post Ryu1978 brought up a very interesting piece of information, the tablet in the Naka Shrine. If I’m reading the naruto wicki right only somebody with the rinnegan can actually read the whole tablet. I’m assuming that somebody with the EMS could read all or nearly most of it. So this Tobi may not be necessarily be Madara, he could be a Uchiha that was able to read most or all of the tablet and that how he knows all this stuff.

    I will continue to say this, their is a big gaping whole in all of Tobi’s story’s about the Senju/Uchiha/Uzamkis. And that is the Huyga clan and their bayakugan. When Naruto started it was said that the Uchiha were descendant of the Huyga or the sharingan is a mutation of the bayakugan. I’ll be the first to say I told you so, when Kishi finally reveals the truth about the past and the importance of the Huyga/bayakugan.

    Last I’m calling it right now a bayakugan user can read that tablet in the Naka Shrine.

  8. Huyga/Byakugan are weak and useless the strongest Byakugan in a hundred year is Hanabi Hyūga neji is just the strongest user cuz hes older it has no mean nothing not anymore.
    mandara is not lien to some his about to kill there no point of him doing somthing that stupid Senju/Uchiha/Uzamkis are the only inportent clan in the story anymore and she just wont to have there funeral in peace maybe he trick the 1st in to thinking he won at the when vote and not just use Izanagi to escape but steal some of the frist it did say that Izanagi turn what the user wants into reality

  9. sorry for the misspelling

  10. i think HANABI HYUGA is one of the paths madara is talking about…

  11. well yo yo if the Huyga/byakagun are weak and useless why are they one of the largest clans around. And the Senju/Uchiha/Uzamakis are almost extinct?

  12. because no on find them as a threat so let them live what are the going to do! but dont get me wrong i love the huyga an the should capitalized on the fact that others namely the Senju/Uchiha/Uzamakis.co thing there not a big deal

  13. @lord hyuga well the uchiha were supposedly wiped out because they were one of the most POWERFUL clans around and posed a threat to the leaf. Uzamakis as well were very powerful and many wanted their powers. The senju r still around as seen by the fact that tsunade is a part of the senju and im sure a few members in the leasf r senju. The hyuga r large due tot eh fact that well they dont really have anything other villages wanted and they r considerably weak compared ot the uchiha, senju and uzamakis.

  14. Didn’t The Cloud village try to capture a Hyuga member? The Hyuga clan members are not weak, and their dojustu doesn’t drain their chakra like the Sharigan does a Uchiha or Non Uchiha, I think the Hyuga clan are old fashion, therefore they never took their techniques to the next level. The Uzumaki clan and Senju clan were distant relatives and I bet the Senju clan learned alot from the Uzumaki’s. In the Manga it never really shown Hyuga and a Uchiha getting together as the Uzumaki & Senju did.

    I think Uchiha>Hyuga & Uzumaki>Senju.

  15. Thank you Rinnegan

  16. that is bull an you know it three-tome Sharigan is stronger then the byakagun and byakagun does drain their chakra all justu use chakra u so wat u said is wrong the older son and the youger sun are almost even to said that Uchiha>Hyuga & Uzumaki>Senju. is impossible senju was the older son most likely the hyuga are related to the uchiha same way the senju are related to the uzumakis dont make false statment when the manga prove other wise t Uchiha=Senju>uzumaki maybe hyuga

  17. I have to agree with Bob that Madara’s izanagi is better than Danzo but still unperfected. According to Madara the Sage of the Six Paths used izanagi to creat the 10 tails. I wonder if combining Rinnegan, Byakugan and Shringan together will allow Madara to utilize the full powers of the izanagi techinque? Then would Naruto’s body would be vessel needed to contain the 10 tails?

  18. There was another doujustu that criple boy had on the old naruto chapters…

  19. what about this guys clan Ranmaru has a dōjutsu kekkei genkai ability similar to the Byakugan. It includes penetrating vision, disrupting eye-based kekkei genkai, and a unique chakra particle extension. He had the ability to use his vision abilities to penetrate the walls of his small shack and view the outside world and perform genjutsu that can fool even the Byakugan. This ability does not appear to have the range of the Byakugan, but it actually has the ability to counter that Hyūga trait. Ranmaru’s vision also lets him locate and track others by sensing chakra, picking up chakra from long distances, and noticing changes in an individual’s chakra. It is also able to sense how many individuals are present.

    Ranmaru’s vision has heightened perception and analytical powers not unlike the Sharingan, meaning Ranmaru can comprehend any details he sees to predict the opponent’s next move. He mainly contributed this ability to helping Raiga become formidable in battle, and may have helped him become one of the Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist. He can also see one’s life force, allowing him to determine that Raiga, who had recently fallen in battle, was still alive. He was also able to transfer part of his own life force to Raiga. When activated, Ranmaru’s eyes momentarily glow red.

  20. @yo yo Ranmaru has only appeared in the anime, so until he shows up in the manga we don’t if he’s an “official” character or filler.

    I think your completely misunderstanding me. Yes obviously what we have seen so far the sharingan & the rinnegan are more powerful
    than the the byakagan. My issue is with the
    Uchiha lineage & history Madara has given us.
    In the beginning of Naruto it’s stated that the
    Uchiha/sharingan is from/descendent from the
    Huyga/byakugan. Everytime Tobi talks about the history/lineage of the Uchiha, the Huyga are never mentioned. So either this is a Kishi plot hole or Tobi is telling half truths and leaving out important information. And I believe thier is more to the byakagan than what we have seen.

  21. Honestly, their isn’t much to rant on about with the Dojustu’s in Naurto. Hyuuga members are well deserved of being the number 1 clan in the village, but that’s only because the Senju have grown old and the Uchiha were considered a great threat.

    Hinata was kidnapped not for her or her clans strength, but for the fact it was her bloodline limit.

    Hyuuga aren’t weak, but they don’t play a big role in the story. That’s it. Uchiha are better and Senju are better. Hyuuga will never shine.

  22. Actually, In the beginning of the manga it was stated that the sharingan cam from the byakugan in more of a way that suggested that most people believed it that way. In no way did it state this as fact. It was more just the people’s belief. So now we know that it is most likely the other way around and that the Hyuga (while powerful in their own right) are most likely a random defunct version of another eye using clan. Possibly the Uchiha and possibly not. Maybe a mixture of Uchiha and Senju. But I don’t believe the the Uchiha came from the Hyuga. Not at all.

  23. Maybe Tobi/Madara has been using Izanagi over and over again all these years to keep himself alive past old age?

  24. DAMN, the last time i checked here was late last night and i already missed out on so much conversation (relating to the comment section, tldr)
    anyway, even tho i think Madara’s a douche and feel kinda bad for Konan, i have to say, i was really happy when Madara attacked Konan after she made that rainbow, lol, i just thought that whole “rainbow bridge to peace and love” was incredibly lame, so the fact that it failed so miserably really touched my funny bone
    Konan: “i shall b the support that hold the bridge to peace up!”
    Madara: “rainbows? GAY! i’m gonna kill u just for that”

  25. @rsvp4GOD

    The manga said that the Sage Six Paths used Izanagi to make the 9-tailed beasts FROM the juubi, not that he created the juubi.

  26. It might be me,
    But I think your all misinterpretation the manga. (unless it is me, obviously)

    It says “The tailed beasts are among his creations.”
    “With the yin-yang elemental power he created the nine beasts from the Ten-Tails’ Chakra”

    This does not state, that he created the 10 tails, it says he used the power to divide the Chakra and give life to the beasts.
    It also says that the tailed beasts (Plural) are among his creations. which is another hint.

    It may just be the translation, but you guys should double check this.

    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/81065970/12

  27. @Ripcord

    I see we both know the truth…
    Lets hug.

  28. @yo yo, I didn’t make a false statement, I said Uchiha were stronger than the Hyuga, and I said Uzumaki was stronger than the Senju clan, but don’t get it twisted yo yo, don’t think for a second the Hyuga clan is weak. Ask yourself, how many Hyuga clan members have we seen in action compared to Sharigan users?? Not to many. Not only does the Sharigan drain the users chakra, check out what I found on Naruto wiki

    “The Sharingan’s second-most prominent ability grants the user an incredible clarity of perception, allowing them to easily recognize genjutsu and different forms of chakra, though not to the same extent as the Byakugan” .
    http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/The_Sharigan_power

    It’s telling you the Byakugan is better at seeing through perception of genjutsu than a Sharigan user, and both Uchiha and Senju were NOT the sons of the SOSP, they were decendants of the Sage 2 sons, so you can’t determine whose older

    Uzumaki’s are better than the Senju’s
    Kushina>Tsunade
    Nagato>Hashirama
    Naruto>Tobirama

  29. red hair = uzumaki clan, makes perfect sense, i can’t believe i missed that.

    i think i was on the right track when i related the sage to both naruto and sasuke, but it seams they were only 2 of the 6 paths like bob mentions.

    very interesting. now we KNOW for sure that this IS uchiha madara we’re talking about.

    something else interesting worth mentioning (bob actually missed) is the fact that madara really recognizes naruto as a major obstacle, a true opponent. he tells konan that they “chose” naruto instead of him. so this means this story revolves around 2 ideals; the ideals of naruto (jerayya and others) and the ideals of madara. that’s what defines good and evil i think.

  30. any more takes that nagato was the reincarnation of the sage? 😛 (just messing with a certain someone, hehehehe)

  31. Konan is alive because her cloak did not come off she over powered Madara too so good for her

  32. ATTENTION!!!!: there was a mistranslation!

    The translation has been updated, you have to download it from Sleepyfans, it confirms it, that Nagato is the 3rd person to possess the 6 Paths Doujutsu. He is NOT the third path.

  33. I also realize that if Tobi is saying that he, “Madara Uchiha,” fought Hashirama to gain Senju powers, so that he could obtain Izanagi, then there is no way he used Izanagi to fake his death, unless he somehow integrated the Senju’s powers and perfected Izanagi in the middle of that battle and then decided to just use up one of his eyes. I highly doubt it.

  34. I’m still not entirely sold on “Madara” being who he says he is. I keep thinking back to Kabuto’s coffin, and with the information we now have, does it maybe point us in a clearer direction than before.

  35. OKay, I know no one trust what he say but there is a difference this time, last time he was talking to Sasuke and Naruto and Kakashi, he has reasons to lie to them, this time he was talking to Konan whom he was about to kill so what reason does he have to lie to her if she is going to die.

  36. Kishi is been great trying to confuse us with the Tobi/madara character,

    When he was introduced, he was only a back up, everyone were more focus on Itachi/sasuke and pein, we all were like ” who is this goofy character”, and then kakashi gaiden is released and many people thought that Obito was tobi.

    Not much later he is appointed not only to be the leader of akatsuki but also the Legendary Madara Uchiha, but being only a ” shelf of his former self”

    And that is exactly what bothers me, why woud he said so by the time he had already obtained the senju power,???? ????????????????????????????

    Teoracly he would be stronger than any Uchiha, and that refers me to the kage meeting when he told them ” I want to become complete”

    I am not completely sure about this guy being the acutual madara (though there is A LOT evidence do the contrary), we will have to wait…..

  37. seeems that naruto his the yang chakra from his new form! so maybe if he has acquires the yin chakra somehow he could be able to be rather formmidble woop woop! still think naruto needs another element and more wind jutsus though!!

  38. i think with madara he has not got the body as in the vessel to full use his powers! he can use izanagi whenever he wants because its just an eye but i think something like a seal or his body is not fully working is my theory maybe hashirama done something to him like he sealed half of him away

  39. super interesting chapter. props to Konan for putting up a good fight and kicking some ass, even if she was destined to lose. Bob, great analysis of Tobi’s powers. I have to say, I get the whole phasing thing but I’m still confused by his powers. I don’t quite get if his phasing/warp powers are part of his Izanagi technique, or if his Izanagi technique is a separate technique that he used to escape from the chasm.

    someone shed some light on this one?

  40. I am more and more skeptical by the theory that Madara’s spirit inhabits other bodies. It seems he genuinely thinks he is Madara Uchiha, and he definitely has the knowledge to back it up, but something here doesn’t sit right with me yet. Tobi is one villain that certainly did his homework, but after all his ranting and stories and his body not being Madara’s body, and that DAMN coffin….I’m not convinced yet.

    I think maybe Zetsu has more to do with the backstory than we know. With his ability to eat bodies and gain another person’s chakra, Zetsu is after all a FUSION of 2 beings, so he could have been an early experiment for Tobi before he could FUSE together an uchiha body and whatever “power” he took from Hashirama.

    also….The Juubi is the Gedo Mazo statue, in one form or another. Possibly a hybrid between itself and the Kyuubi. Which begs the question…will the Kyuubi ultimately be stolen from Naruto by the end where the Juubi is bound to be revealed and fought against? This blogger says yes. Both Naruto and Killer Bee will lose their Bijuu in order for the Juubi to be revived(Gedo Mazo will be whole), but Naruto with his Senju body will not die whereas Killer Bee may sadly not make it.

  41. As to the phasing abilitiy, I think it is pretty clear that it is restricted to his right eye, especially since the warping is centered around that eye. He has been able to warp multple times in a row, so clearly he is not sacrificing an eye every time he does it… unless of course he has a lot of eyes under his clothing (a la Danzo).

    This brings me to another point:

    If Tobi was going to use Izanagi…. I’m surprised he can do it with the eye covered (which it seems he does). Danzo had to “unseal” his right arm, and I’m not sure what that was all about, unless Danzo was preventing chakra from flowing into/out of it, but I thought it was because the eyes had to be exposed for the Izanagi to work. One possibility of course is that only a single sharingan must see what is going on to perform Izanagi (or a Rin’negan of course, but those aren’t sacrificed) and then the user can sacrifice any sharingan they possess.

  42. I don’t want to believe Konan is dead, and since they didn’t show it, I do believe Konan is still alive. In reference to why Nagato was left in the open, well, I believe that if it was truly in the open, Tobi/Madara could have found it on his own. The nature of the place gives an air of seclusion and secrecy. I would compare it to the toad sage mountain area, so although the body was lying out in the open, it still would be very difficult to find. I’m curious to know more about this place. In reference to the Hyugas, first, they are a great and powerful clan. There have been attempts made against them, such as when Hinata was kidnapped as a child, so the Hyuga clan is certainly not lacking in value. I would also state that the Hyuga is almost certainly one of the six paths, as the Byakugan has the same origins as the Sharingan and Rinnegan. I would also venture to state that Hinata will probably be Tobi/Madara’s target, not her sister. My reasons for this are as follows: Hanabi is not a character who has been developed much, and has not been seen in Shippuden. Hinata is a more central character. Second, I believe Hinata has the potential to become far more powerful than her sister. Her growth has been great, and the moves she has developed are formidable. Third, she has already been kidnapped once. This could be a foreshadowing of what is to come. And last, Naruto is strongly tied up in all this. Having Hinata involved would be one more tie that binds Naruto to this. Moving on, the Uzumaki reference. Nagato’s connection to Naruto has been hinted at before, through Jiraiya and so on. I wouldn’t be surprised if Nagato turns out to be Naruto’s uncle or cousin or something. We don’t know much about Kushina’s family, so this could be possible. As far as Madara taking some kind of power from Hashirama to get the Senju, I can’t even imagine how that might have happened. I think more likely that Madara has some Senju blood from somewhere down the line, especially if he is a descendant of the Sage of the Six paths. I’m not sure Naruto and Sasuke’s conflict has a bearing on the Six Paths. Naruto would be related through the Nine Tails to the suggested Tailed-Beast path, but I don’t see another way. If the Uzumakis as a clan were involved, then Nagato could provide that. As far as Sasuke, well, the Uchihas have already been mentioned as a path, so I’m not sure how Sasuke would help there. It seems that most of the paths are related to the Leaf village and its constituents. We might look among the other Leaf shinobi for another path. Kakashi, maybe? What about Kurenai? And there are other clans that could be connected, such as the Nara or the Akamichi. To conclude, I want to echo the thought that I would rather not see Konan as one of the summons…

  43. @ripcord

    i thought of that too. I think that’s why he actually removed his mask here, or pulls it down. Either way the jutsu symbol bubble is pointing to his left eye so that’s when he uses it as he reaches for his mask.
    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/81065970/5

  44. @ripcord

    by the way, as a fellow ‘obito’s body’ theory fanatic, i was wondering if you noticed the clever little parallel in Tobi’s appearance to Kakashi here with his mask, the crack looking like his facial scar.
    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/81065970/11

  45. the huyga have nothing to do with this manga any more hinata is weak really weak i mean ino weak so no just no also it was stated that tsunade was the strongest female out of leaf so how is it Kushina>Tsunade we barley see tsunade and never see kushina fight but from what she said to naruto be for she died we can a sum that she was only go at seal futher more in the manga it stated the older son got the eye(sasuke older then naruto) younger son got the body(naruto because he related to the senju)

    @narashikamo neji said that hinata younger sister has the more potential then anyone in the hugya clan that probably why hinata get her butt kick by her he also said she will be stronger then him that why she not brand wit the cage bird seal when hinata was kidnapped she was yet to be born

    i just want to add madara is probably going to give pain’s eyes to sasuke so he will be the fourth sage of six paths snice uzumaki show by naruto have the body show wit pain eye he will have the DNA of pain will have some of the body

  46. @uchiha_gaiden

    No I hadn’t noticed that. I can’t believe there is another TOBITO fan out there! I thought I was all alone. I think it is mostly that I WANT it to be true, for Kakashi, and perhaps that is why I see the facts all pointing to it… I just love the poetry in it if you know what I mean. In any case, I found it strange that Tobi’s left side of his face was blackened out, I wonder if that’s because it is either:

    1) Half Senju (i.e. half Hashirama)
    2) Crushed under boulders (i.e. when Obito was further caved under, he got even more hurt).
    3) Kishi just being silly and not letting us see the whole face.

  47. All right, madara’s SotP complex opens up a flood of questions, but I think two possibilities might be the most important to explore:
    1. What if the legend of the Sotp should be taken more literally?
    2. What Madara is the First Hokage?

    First, the idea that madara is going to so muvh trouble to collect the Six Paths makes me more willing to accept that the legend of theb Sage is more truth than fiction.It could be possible that the sage actually gave his first born his true eyes and left his true body to his second child. This interpration might explain how madara was able to give the eyes to Nagato. The rinnegan might be an uchiha treasure.Similarly, the Senju might have the Sage’s body stashed away in some crypt; it might even be somewhere in the Leaf Village
    Having the one and only eyes of the sage might explain how the uchiha recieved massive spiritual chakras as well, and even how the uchiha and hyuga branched off from each other. Thinking about the mechanics behind dojutsus like the sharingan and the byakugan they both observe how chakra works. While the byakugan monitors how chakra is moved and distributed, the sharingan seems to track how chakra is produced and transformed(ie chakra natures)
    Likewise,having the Sage’s body might also have truly given the Senju clan Life energy and vitality attributed to them by the legend. Isn’t a ninja’s physical body one of the most valuable things in the Naruverse. After all, it contains vital strengths and weaknesses of an entire clan. This idea might have caused a rift amongst the Senju like the Eyes tore the uchiha apart. The Uzumaki, being skilled in the sealing arts, probably focus on containing chakras physical potential, while the remaining Senju focused on expending that power through things like taijutsu summoning jutsu, and healing ninjutsus.
    Okay, there’s also the issue of Madaras true identity. I think that putting his his spirit in the first’s body makes perfect sense, considering madara’s admiration for the first as a rival and his perfection of Izanagi. Plus it seems logical that if madara needs the eyes of the Sage to complete the Six Paths. he would also need something from both the uchiha and the senju as the sage’s primary descendants. Really, not many people would suspect that the First Hokage, who led to the organization of the Naruverse would be used as a tool of its destruction. It is so confusing that it kind of makes perfect sense.
    So now that madara has something uchiha, something senju, and something Sagey(in the Eyes) he’s probably going to need something uzumaki, and something hyuga to balance out something else from the Sage, namely his body.
    As farv as the Sage’s body, I believe that the Sixth Coffin Summon holds the key. Its conents might inclufde Madara’s real body, the Sage’s real body, or someone else entirely. Something from the Uzumaki clan would either be supplied by Nagato or Naruto. Naruto’s my pick because he is the title character. Nagato might also be picked because he’s an uzumaki now. As for something from the hyuga, I guess it comes down to a sacrifice from Neji or Hinata. I have reason to believe that Hinata’sb goinhg to step up again because she has strong ties to Naruto and she is kind of prone to getting kidnapped. However, this complex could be a great opportunity for Neji to get some face time by protecting his cousin.
    Well, that’s all I have to say. Let me know what you guys think. 🙂

  48. y r people mentioning hinata gettin kidnapped so much???? That was in the ANIME not the manga. The anime is not official and is not to be held as accurate. It is not written by kishi and the filler where hinata was kidnapped was just that… filler. Not official and not a good source for a argument.

  49. definitely sound theories everywhere. we’re missing one key here – the second hokage.
    he has the senju blood, has a bit of dark history being the edo tensei creator. could it be that he was there during the battle and somehow madara was able to transfer his soul to the second’s body?
    it’s also possible that he somehow took in madara’s principles and became influenced by them, going as far as following his footsteps.
    i know this is a bit farfetched, but the second hokage’s history is very vague. think about it – never had pupils, had a pretty shady death, and besides, all families are bound to have a black sheep. there could even be sibling rivalries between him and the first hokage.
    what do you guys think?

  50. definitely sound theories everywhere. we’re missing one key here – the second hokage.
    he has the senju blood, has a bit of dark history being the edo tensei creator. could it be that he was there during the battle and somehow madara was able to transfer his soul to the second’s body?
    it’s also possible that he somehow took in madara’s principles and became influenced by them, going as far as following his footsteps.
    i know this is a bit farfetched, but the second hokage’s history is very vague. think about it – never had pupils, had a pretty shady death, and besides, all families are bound to have a black sheep. there could even be sibling rivalries between him and the first hokage.
    what do you guys think?

  51. @Token Please look at my entire argument. I would like some more feedback on my theory. But I see what you’re saying if hinata’s kidnapping doesn’t show up in the manga at all, it does not have a place in a discussion like this.
    This is totally unrelated, but since red hair qualifies as a characteristic of the uzumaki clan, couldn’t karin be considered an uzumaki as well. Since Karin and more recently Naruto have both shown advanced chakra sensing abilities, they might have inherited that trait from the same clan. Man, Nagato’s family history really makes things look more complicated in the Naruverse! 🙂

  52. This was amazing!!!!! I think that if t chapter 509 did anything better than the rest , it confirmed for me that the Uzumaki Clan is entirely wide spread through out the Naruverse with certain Kekkai Genkai and other S ranked capable ninja that have been spotlighted already like Haku and others that have yet to introduced. I would go as far as to say that Tobi more than likely had something to do with the “end” to the former Whirlpool country and “destruction” of the Eddy village because of how much of a threat they presented. I wanna see how many more are out there than Naruto could not only pawn tobi, madara, obito, etc, but he can also revive his own clan

  53. Sadly, I do believe that Madara has killed Konan. It is in fact sad, but…she is most likely dead.

    I don’t think Nagato or Konan would let the Rinnegan fall that easily. There’s definitely a catch/trap.

  54. @Naruto tutor

    It was said that someone in Akatsuki was related to the Hokage (in one of Kishimoto’s interviews), so it could be Karin, although now that I think about it, it probably was Nagato in the end, seeing as he has been confirmed Uzumaki and that is a distant relative of Senju, Tsunade’s lineage.

  55. @clutter 2 I guess that the second hokage could be a missing link. Like you were saying, he’s the last hokage we have to learn about. As storylines go, his could definitely use the more development. The First Hokahge built ran the village.The Third,Fourth, and Fifth Hokages each contributed to keeping the village safe with their lives. What do we know about the second’s social accomplishments? He chose Sarutobi as his his successor, and oh yeah, and created the Leaf’s first police department. The second’s story is bland, despite his support for law enforcement. We still don’t knpw exactly how he died.That might be one reason kishi has to liven him up with random skills. So anyway, I agree with you clutter: maybe we should expect more from the second hokage.

  56. Chapter 510 I meant

  57. @ ripcord
    I didn’t know kishimoto mentioned a possible relationship between akatsuki. I suppose if kishi says there is only one, I have to agree that the Nagato connection is probably it. I guess I just wanted to fullfill bob’s prediction: ” I can see people trying to link every orange/red haired character in the Naruverse to the Uzumaki clans now, lol, let the fun begin.”Just because karin has red hair doesn’t necessarily make her part of the uzumaki clan(It’s just really fun to think about it.).

  58. @clutter 2 What do you think about the Second’s brother, Hirashima Senju, the first hokage? I was thinking that since we do not know anything about their parents that they might be half brothers. Tobirama could be descended from both uchiha and senju making him the combination of the first two paths. It might be an awesomely bad theory but tobi could be short for tobirama, and how unexpected would it be for the second hokage to be madara?

    So in case you’re wondering, I think that madara could be related to one of the hokages by being a hokage himself.

  59. @ the clutter posts and anyone who’d want to consider this:
    Oh, man!The Second really does look suspicious though. He’s a master at water style jutsu so he could easily rise up in the Hidden Rain, he’s a master at time-space ninjutsu, madara’s specialty. If Madara somehow is not related to the Second Hokage, kishi sure is framing him that way.
    Whoever Madara is, The revelations in Ch. 510, does not give me anymore certainty as to his true identity. I’ve called him both the First and the Second hokages so far. What about Naruto 510 gives you guys into who Madara is?

  60. @ Token

    Hinata was kidnapped in manga too, this is official.

    See this page:

    http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-102-page-16.html

    and also the next page.

  61. @ Token

    Hinata was kidnapped in manga too, in chapter102. This is official.

  62. @ripcord

    ah, i dunno. i think that Tobi has been trying to create/become the perfect vessel for some time now, and the tragic irony is that he’s really not much better than Danzo. The resemblance to Obito at the moment is uncanny, and his body would have been available the first time in the timeline we “see” Tobi in the Minato flashback arc since Kakashi was fairly tall and had his headband over his eye. Then in the frame with Itachi kneeling down before him to ask for help with the massacre he has the long “madara” hair again. Around the same time, during the flashback of Kisame, he has long hair and no mask on. That tells us the Mizukage/Ao knows Tobi’s identity, AND since Kisame recognized Tobi’s face when he took off his mask post-Itachi’s death, that means he’s been using the SAME body since his fight with Minato.

    it could be that zetsu was an early attempt at fusing together two beings. When afforded the opportunity of a fresh uchiha body to fuse with whatever he stole from Hashirama, i could easily believe he used Obito’s body. Or, maybe a more bold theory is to say that Zetsu IS the creation of the Madara vs Hashirama battle, and by using zetsu’s cell tissue as his own (arms, etc) he effectively has fused hashirama’s “light”–if you will– into whatever body he’s using. Maybe he was created from the crash of Madara’s Yang chakra with Hashirama’s Yin chakra, and then Madara let him eat his body which gave Zetsu all of his memories. If Zetsu can record battles, eat bodies, mimic chakra…why wouldn’t he be able to attain their memories as well? I’d say that’s pretty reasonable.

    The interesting thing here is that if it is indeed Obito’s body, why is it grown up and not in his “dead” child form? What if Obito survived and was saved by Zetsu who mistook him for dead, and Zetsu repaired his body using his cells/regeneration thus giving Obito the powers he has plus giving him access to the Senju power as well. Zetsu, having known all the knowledge Madara had collected, basically played back everything Obito needed to know to assume Madara’s identity because it showed him a side of the shinobi world he didn’t expect…a darker, hate-filled world. Then the uchiha massacre, blah blah, stole sharingons, messed with Yagura, etc. etc..

  63. I’m not usually into this kinda thing, but Konan has GREAT legs *drool*

    Was anyone else disturbed by Madara beating up a girl like that? I usually love violence, but this just felt…weird.

    All these revelations this chapter felt like an asspull by Kishi. Yin Yang chakra is used in the Nara’s jutsu, medical jutsu etc, so how’ll he explain that?

    Great summary El bob-o

  64. Also, List of Uzumakis:

    Kushina, Nagato, Nagato’s parents, Tayuya, Karin, Gaara, Gaara’s father, Sasori, Sasori’s parents and Chiyo hehehehe

  65. Since we’re talking clans (up above about hyuga clan), I’m putting it out there that the Kaguyas were the best. Orochimaru thought Kimimaro’s Shikotsumyaku was a more than suitable replacement for ITACHI’S sharingan lol. I’d go with the Kaguyas, too bad they’re extinct….

  66. @lilmoe, yep he was the Sage’s reincarnation. Jiraiya said so, plus he’s the only one with a Rinnegan (which is clearly not inherited by blood), and according to mangastream’s new translation “You are the third of the Sages of Six Paths”, not that he’s the third path.

    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/81065970/17

    Seriously, I could do a post on this if anyone wants 😛

  67. Konan was seriously awesome in this. There’s only one thing that bothers me…

    Unless she had some massive help, or some way to make multiple explosive tags at a time, it would have been impossible to create 6 hundred billion tags. Granted she specializes in paper, but I think that’s limited to folding it rather than writing on it.

    Assuming it takes about 10 seconds to write each note, it would take 6 trillion seconds to make all 6 hundred billion. That’s equal to 189276 years. If each note took one second, it would be about 19 years, but judging by the looks of the tags it isn’t that quick (and I don’t think konan’s been planning this for 19 years.)

  68. holy crap!!……this chapter was awsome…i really wanted konan’s last attack to land upon that bastard madara though….i think i agree with some of you on the fact that hanabi hyuuga is another path….but its really great to know that , bob, you really thought about the possibility of naruto and sasuke playing a part in this whole messed up plan!!!

  69. the second hokage has been mentioned previously in other posts relating to his role in this manga. he is a very shady charactor/creation. with all this izangi business its difficult to tell what is reality, what has been created and what is still illusion. i would still like to think that itachis death was an illusion.

    i know itachi gave naruto a gift and no one knows what that is yet, but doesn’t that mean naruto has some of the uchihas chakra/power in him. senju power and uchiha power?

    karin is still alive for some reason. could she be an uzumaki? with her strong chakra sensing abilities and super (here suck my chakra) healing abilities. red hair and her attitude. its a good possibility.

    konan, i hope you live. there is definately a reason for the smirk on nagatos face. a trump card somewhere??? a really wild hope here but it would be great if konan knew genjutsu too. wouldn’t that be interesting.

    kishi has had things well planned out from the beginning. i doubt he would have made the hyuga clan all mighty and powerful at the start of naruto, just to completely forget about them during the rest of the manga. hinata its your time to shine….

  70. To be fair Konan’s attack landed without flaw, it was only due to Izanagi’s hack abilities that Madara/ Tobi survived. In other words Madara/Tobi did die, he just changed his reality right before he died. What I think happened between the First Hokage and Madara was this. The First beat down Madara and left him for dead, somehow Madara survived and managed to recover some of his strength while hiding. It was said the First died in battle, what I gather from that is that after extensive battling he grew fatigued and Madara the ever opportunist attacked when the First was weakened, there is just no other way, for the man who stood on top of the ninja world during his time to fall in a common battle to any ninja, it must have been Madara who ambushed him and took him down, in the process stealing some of his DNA, vitality or chakra or whatever. This could also be the case with the Second Hokage, when after he faced the 20 or so elite cloud ninja’s he was weakened and Madara struck, taking the Second down and in the process learning Space Time ninjutsu during the battle or after studying the Second’s body. From what we have seen on Madara’s side he is an opportunist, maybe due to the fact that he is weak and a shell of his former self. I wouldn’t put it past him to ambush the man he most hated, feared and respected.

  71. About Konan making all those tags:

    She said it took her time to prepare it, and if she can make paper tags that explode like Naruto can make shadow clones (ok I know her numbers are WAY higher… but it’s only paper) then I guess I could imagine it. The way I see it:

    She wanted Tobi/Madara to die so badly that she found a way to make it happen.

    And I guess I must say “bravo” to Kishimoto for having so many possibilities for his main villain this far into his manga. I suppose I can’t blame him for wearing a mask…

  72. 1. A woman scorned is always a problem!
    2. The izanagi revelation was amazing, is pretty much means konan wasted chakra, was a don is madara!
    3. I reiterate my previous theory, madara’s soul is in another body.
    Now to join the discussion, sorry if i repeated someone’s comments

  73. nice find Narutotutor. I’d definitely say the second has something to do with this, dare I say that he’s Madara?

  74. @ Kisuzachi

    Do the post dude!
    The possible theories 4rm this chapter will make great blogs! Can’t wait 4 them to come out!

  75. how did tobi obtain the power of the senju?!
    i thought even the sharingan cant copy bloodline traits.
    so hwo did he get it?!

  76. Same way Danzo did… by implanting cells most likely. And I would guess that since Tobi is an Uchiha, he can tolerate them better than Danzo.

  77. So I guess Karin is also an Uzumaki, she has red hair also!

  78. Orochimaru revived hashirama and tobirama using edo-tensei to defeat sarutobi if tobirama wasnt dead how could he have done it. Forget about tobirama=madara

  79. @yellow flash Yeah, I believe that karin has to have some Uzumaki in her.That information kind of makes the connection between Sasuke and Naruto sad and funny at the same time. It makes harder to believe that an uzumaki can ever have a true relationship with an uchiha. Plus, this situation reminds me of the famous lip-lock between the two guys after sasuke was introduced. Weird how these things work out, right?
    @ripcord Madara could have implanted the First’s cells into his body, and because he’s has uchiha blood he could probably handle the power of a senju much better than a poser like danzo. That being said, however, Madara’s izanagi might not be that much better than Danzo’s. (Am I seeing things or do both madara’s eyes look intact?) Also, just when would madara do the operation. I assume that he was pretty beat up after his battle with the first. He would have to have set a lot of things in order to pull that off.
    @Sasuke the beast
    In 510, madara said the SoSP was a man with both uchiha and senju blood within him. This theory seems impossible given the bad blood between the clans, but could it be possible that there could be a person other than the Sage who is descended from the senju and the uchiha. If izanagi is something like a bloodlimit technique, Madara’s prowess would make greater sense than if he had just injected himself with senju blood. So there might be a possibly that whowever madara is, he could be a descendant of both clans.
    @everyone
    Something just doesn’t add up about the Second Hokage. Kishi’s hiding some crucial information.

  80. @emo-nin EdoTensei takes sacrifices to create dopplegangers right. I’m not sure if it was in the manga, but in the anime didn’t Pein transform two dead people into itachi and kisame look-alikes? Kisame and Itachi were far from the grave at that time, so if Pein can use any reanimation techs close to EdoTensei, then it is possible that the mold doesn’t have to be empty before you create another caste. In other words, someone might be able to hire out an impersonator of a living being in the ninja world. Living impersonators have talent agents, too, even in our world.
    All I have to say about tobirama senju is,”Somethin’ ain’t right!”

  81. @emo also u have to remember that the second is the Creator of the edo tensei jutsu so it is quite possible there were tricks to get around “summoning” someone supposedly dead and perhaps there is a part of this technique not known to us yet.

  82. Also, as we’ve seen with nagato, the replica made from Edo Tensei is completely different from the physical body which gives the replica its shape. Orochimaru could have just copied the image of tobirama to use in his battle against the Third while all along madara could have settled himself into the real deal.
    As I said before, if tobirama doesn’t seem an awful lot like Madara, he’s being framed for sure.

  83. @ naruto tutor edo tenshi does use sacrifices but they not clones as evidence of when anko and her team were chasin kabuto they found the dead bodies kabuto used for edo tensi

  84. I’m not so surue Lost Shinobi:

    After Orochimaru’s Edo Tensei, the sacrifices were found to be inside the bodies. Kabuto wouldn’t have left them behind. Besides, I think that the person has to be ALIVE but trapped when the Edo Tensei is cast, so that the person’s soul is used in the summoning. That’s what I thought anyways.

  85. @lost shinobi: When I said “replica” earlier I was just trying to say that edo tensei fashions a dead body after the image of shinobi whether they are dead or alive at the time. I get replicating confused with cloning, too, easpecially if I think about pokemon and Ditto. Maybe I should have used another word, but cloning, or any word related to it, seems to fit best. Naruto’s clones were among the worst ever when the manga first started. Besides, I think ninja can make clones out of objects. Without a soul, a body is, as the saying goes, just dead weight. I guess I believe that ninja can use a dead body as a shell in order to clone another ninja. Sometimes the concept of cloning is too overwhelming to me. And it’s in manga too now. I mean, come on! 🙂

  86. Wait a minute!One thing conflicts with the madara= tobirama theory, (other than the fact that the second hokage is presumed dead, of course) If madara is using the Seconds body to house his soul, why he just used time-space ninjutsu and not water style techniques. That iswhat the Second is famous for, after all. Furthermore, madara most likely would have used the third mizukage for street cred in the Land of Water using his sharingan powers alone.
    I still think the Second should be on the list of madara’s suspected identities because his story is just the most underdeveloped among all the hokages. He’s the only hokage who doesn’t have a direct connection to the Leaf Village of the present day. Sure, he’s the brother of the First, but the Second had no children of his own. I would like to know what the Leaf was like during the time tobirama was elected as hokage. Maybe there was a rule back in the day which said that a close advisor to the first hokage would be likely to fill that position upon the First’s death or something or maybe since the Leaf wasn’t fully formed back then, it was just expected that tobirama would just take over. The circumstances around his election need to be explained.

  87. naruto is from the Uzumaki and Itachi is from the uchihas his chakra/power is in naruto so he will be able to do the same thing as tobi or more. itachi and pein where the only too that would aposed Madara so itachis gif to naruto is something good. look at what he give his brother and how strong sasuke is now if itachi wouldnt have give him his powers sasuke wouldnt be shit. sorry for the spelling

  88. o and the uzumaki and the Senju clans are different there for naruto is going to be different then madara. Nagato was a uzumaki and he was so strong

  89. he crated the anbu made the uchiha leaf police
    and separated clan from state (meaning a hokage has no say in clan affairs) then got his butt hand to him by 20or so cloud nin

  90. i have a theory…

    i don’t think this is the first time madara used izanagi. the first time might have been done during the fight with the 1st hokage.

    that would make perfect sense as to why everyone (including the 1st) thought he was dead. and the fact that danzo knew that he wasn’t dead is probably due to danzo’s knowledge of that technique.

  91. @lilmoe

    That has been proposed before, but now it makes no sense!

    Tobi stated that you need to control the power of the Uchiha and the Senju. This would mean that during the fight, Madara would have had to implant the Shodai’s cells, AND learn how to control them, which from what we’ve seen with Danzo can be a difficult thing during a battle.

    It does seem an easy way out, to answering the question as to how Madara survived but Hashirama doesn’t know it. It could also explain how Madara lived so long: he simply uses Izanagi periodically to keep himself younger, since he has so many eyes. Of course, he can’t keep himself any younger than the age he was at during the Uchiha massacre. This is because I believe Izanagi’s weakness, right now anyway, is that it can’t repair ALL injuries, it just repairs injuries from the event that is currently taking place. Tobi could have used Izanagi during the first set of explosions to prevent the loss of his arm, but he didn’t, and so he couldn’t get it back when he uses Izanagi later.

  92. @ ripcord the reason why Danzo had to unseal his arm was because if he had it unsealed all the time it would be constantly using chakra like the reason kakashi has to close his eye!

  93. Just making a statement about tobirama is everyone forgetting how many konoha ninja was with him 6 I believe that being said it sounds suspicious that there group ha at least 3 kage level fighters an opted for one to be a decoy while the others flee does anyone not see something wrong there ?

  94. @minato fan yea I have thought of that before as well. . I mean u have the second hokage sarutobi and fanzine. Those three alone I would think could handle 6 cloud ninja. Not to mention the three other ninja in the group were probably pretty strongbas well

  95. danzo*

  96. @ripcord
    when madara used Izanagi during his battle with konan he retain with missing arm that indicate he cannot retain younger (izanagi retain you to life without any physical change)

  97. I just have 1 question….Why are Nagato’s eyes open? Isn’t he dead? Nobody else finds that disturbing? Yahiko’s eyes were closed…

  98. @NSSK

    Hmm I did contradict myself there. Well, it was just an idea anyway.

  99. http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-481/04/

    Tobirama used the word “master”. For all we know that could means “S-class”. Imagine facing down 20 Akatsuki members (that’s 20 S-class ninjas) at once. No Kage can take on 2 Akatsukis let alone 20 of them. The only logical thing to do IS run away

  100. @kisu

    Well personally I feel like Akatsuki is above S-class…. but you make a good point.

    One other point about it: Tobirama decided he could sacrifice himself for the younger generation because he knew Sarutobi was ready to be Hokage. Also, he probably knew that someone good had to be the distractor, because if someone lame did it, the Kumo ninjas would be back on the trail quickly, before there was time for an escape.

  101. So on average who is stronger kage level or s class ?

  102. I think Kage level are considered S-Class, so they are about equal in my opinion. It’s just, if they face an opponent who have abilities or techniques that are able to counter theirs, just look at Kisame and Guy, I thought Kisame would kick Guys ass at first but Guy just has the fighting style that can defeat Kisame. I could go one step farther and say that there isn’t such a thing in the Naruto world as the strongest, I mean there is when it comes to rank, but once you reach a certain level like Jonin or higher it is all about using your head and your intelligence.

    You could be as strong as Itachi or Kisame but if you don’t know how to use your techniques to the fullest then you aren’t strong in my opinion that’s why I consider Shikamaru and Shikaku as two of the strongest ninja in the Naruto world, they may not have flashy jutsu to make their opponent tremble but if you underestimate them they will crush you.

    I’m not saying you don’t need super jutsu to obliterate you opponent but it’s not just about that, just look at Naruto’s Rasenshuriken, that technique is s-rank or even higher but you have to know when and how to use it if it’s gone to be effective. You can’t just throw it without using strategy , I hope you guys get what I’m saying.

  103. All this Tobirama talk has got me thinking about what has been brought up before, and that is why is the Hokage out on a mission during a war? And how could he have been so careless as to being trapped by 20 jounin cloud ninja. Also I find it hard to believe that with Sarutobi, Danzo and 4 other strong ninja they could not trick or out flank those cloud ninja. I can see why some people would think his “death” to be suspicious if he was really killed.

  104. I agree as well wit u guys the 2nd’s death was too easy. Someone was saying that they were 20 s-rank ninjas, it cant be, coz hve u seen or heard about a village hving 20 s-rank ninjas at the same time? And on a single mission all together? Akutsaki is deferent, they hacked the best ninjas from around the naruto world

  105. @xtailedfox

    I don’t find it completely unbelievable… if it had been from Sunagakure I would have been suspicious, but Kumo is just about as powerful as Konoha.

    Besides, this only has complete issue if all 7 of Tobirama and his companions are S-rank and above. It’s true that Tobirama, Sarutobi, Danzo, Koharu, and Homaru are likely that powerful, so that’s 5 of 7, I would guess that the other 2 are as well. If you don’t agree with that statement, then I say the master bounty hunters from Kumo only need to be A-rank (or at least some of them) to cause a problem. Konoha also at that time likely had The White Fang, a powerful Uchiha (possibly Fugaku, depending on his age) or two. And for all we know, the Raikage could have been with the master bounty hunters and the 8-tails host as well.

    There seemed to be a lot of back and forth between Konoha and Kumo, it’s possible that Konoha went to sabatoge a military operation of Kumo… and it was so vital the Hokage went to do it.

  106. Maybe Kumo is behind all of this, I mean just think about it, the Raikage said it himself that Kumo is the only village that didn’t have a missing nin join Akatsuki, this could all be a cover and the Raikage could be working with Tobi. If Kumo was so great how did they just let Akatsuki killed and capture Yugito without any back up but they declared war when KB was supposedly captured. I could be grasping at straws.

  107. @ripcord

    true, but that only depends if hashirama’s powers can only be controlled by implanting his cells. tobi never mentions “how” he had control over hashirama’s powers.

    tobi/madara, has mentioned that the previous izanagi was “incomplete” and he also claims that he has made it complete. the flaw that you mentioned truly makes sense, but still, we have no idea of to what extent tobi/madara can use izanagi. i assumed he did cuz if hashirama thought he was dead, the only logical reason for someone of hashirama’s caliber to make a mistake is if tobi/madara used a trick, that trick was most likely izanagi, that’s how i came up with that conclusion.

    it seems someone else has brought this theory up, sorry i didn’t read it before. i wont claim credit for it 😛

  108. @Flash, Kumo is the ONLY trustworthy village in my opinion. They’re the only ones to not have someone in Akatsuki AND the only ones not to use akatsuki as well

  109. @kisuzachi

    When did Konoha use Akatsuki? Itachi was in Akatsuki, that is true, but he wasn’t in it as a criminal as we now know. Granted, none of the nations know that (I guess there are only 2 people in Konoha who really know about Itachi now). It’s a shame that Itachi’s life is stained in such a way, it would have been more a tribute to his brother if Sasuke could have cleared Itachi’s name, but Tobi knew what he was doing and he set the spoiled brat off.

    In any case, it is true that so far Kumo has had no involvement of any kind, but from what we’ve seen they didn’t play too nice in the past either.

  110. @ripcord, according to the Raikage in his tirade, all the villages except Kumo used Akatsuki

  111. Also, you have to remember that all the Villages are just trying to survive. Ask anyone from Amegakure about how nice Konoha is and you won’t like the response. All the Villages are bad to some extent depending on your position.

  112. @ Kisu what villages used Akatsuki & why? They were an organization that used collected tailed beasts. I don’t remember anything from the manga or anime about them doing mercernary work for the villages.

  113. @Lord Huyga

    The Tsuchikage from the rock village admitted to using Akatsuki when resources were scarce.

    @kisuzachi

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-458/07/

    He says he knows that “there are those among you” who used Akatsuki, he doesn’t say all of them. The Tsuchikage admits to using Akatsuki,

    http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-458/09/
    Sunagakure is accused of using Akatsuki via Orochimaru, but we already know he was not in the organization when he attacked Konoha. He does imply that Danzo was in on the plot, and he may have been since Oro was able to easily infiltrate the city, this would implicate Konoha.
    On the next page the Raikage accuses Kirigakure of being involved because of the 4th Mizukage, who we now know was being controlled by Tobi.

    I guess Konoha could be implicated via Danzo, which stinks you know, because I don’t feel that he really represents Konoha. And also, Orochimaru was not in Akatsuki then… so in this case the Raikage’s accusation is misplaced. He was right to be suspicious of Danzo, but for different reasons.

  114. Also, I don’t agree with the Tsuchikage’s assessment of a need to hire mercenaries for Konoha, their stock of ninjas was always great, they had the Uchiha and many other great clans, I don’t think there was a time that they would resort to hiring Akatsuki.

    Also, the Tsuchikage’s statement that Kumogakure’s militarization forced them to use Akatsuki: this supports the huge number of bounty hunters Kumo had chasing the 2nd Hokage.

  115. i got an interesting theory…. i think that the senju, hyuga, and uchia clans are decendents of the uzamaki clan. the sage of six paths is orginally an uzamaki. the rinnengan is formed when the body and the eyes are in one vessal. if madara claims he gave the rinnengan to nagato something tells me he knew that nagato was an uzamaki and he implanted a sharingan into him which mutated into the rinengan. nagato was basically a test to see if his assumptions were true i think narutos true transformation into the sage of 6 paths will be when whatever itatchi gave him takes effect this giving him the rinengan and well… ill elaborate more on my theory when we get a look at sauske’s new ems.. by the way i think the bakyugan is part of the key to the rinnengan as well… it allows one to see ones chakra network… if you compare ones chakra network to the markings on naruto when he uses the nine tails chakra they are very similar in structure..

  116. @ripcord, yeah, but as far as we know, Konoha also used them. The thing is, the Tsuchikage is right, in a sense. Akatsuki wasn’t villainous back then, they were just mercenaries. Who’d think a band of mercenaries would become such a huge threat in the future?

  117. @kisuzachi

    Well, that was exactly the plan of Akatsuki that was explained to us at the beginning of part 2:
    make the villages dependent upon them to fight for them, and get rich from it. Obviously it goes deeper than that, but that was the cover they used.

    I find it hard to believe that Konoha would have used them offically under Sarutobi and certainly not under Minato or Tsunade. Akatsuki wasn’t around under Tobirama. Perhaps Root used them, but in that sense I think it is unfair to lump Konoha in with Akatsuki.

    It’s true that Danzo remains silent under that accusation, but I feel that is mostly because he believes he does not owe anyone an explanation for whatever he did to protect his country. This doesn’t make him guilty necessarily, but obviously there is blood on his hands.

  118. thanks ripcord for the info, I agree with you that the Leaf would never have used them, but Danzo might have.

  119. why does everyone think Konoha is so good? Or at the very least, so much better than all the other villages? Look at all the crap its pulled. Konoha is only held in such high regard by the fandom because that’s where Naruto grew up. Had he grown up in Kumo you’d all believe Kumo was good as well. Konoha is no different from any other village. It looks out for its own survival. And if we’re talking survival, then its better to send out mercenaries to do missions than risking your own military. And Akatsuki only became a widely known “evil” organization 3 years ago, so any village would have used them before.

  120. @kisuzachi

    I don’t think it is so much that at all… I think Sunagakure is a great country too, because now I am sure that they are committed to Naruto’s kind of peace. I’m not against Kirigakure, in fact I feel sorry for them having been manipulated directly by Tobi. I trust Kumo, but I worry that their views are stuck in the past. Iwagakure… I’m not sure what to make of them.

    I think the past is important, but equally important is how the village is moving forward, especially because we don’t know the whole history of the villages. Otherwise, there will be continuous infighting like there was at the Kage summit.

  121. @ripcord, Naruto’s version of peace also poses problems, but that’s a whole other debate lol

  122. Okay Guys, I was looking for spoilers and I found some but I really don’t know if they are real but they said the Madara will pluck out Nagato’s Rinnegan but they will be fake, it seems Konan fooled Madara’s Genjutsu knowing she would loose. While Naruto is heading back to Konoha he is going to stop and feel pain in his Eyes and when he opens them he will have the Rinnegan. So Naruto is going to inherited those eyes.

  123. Hmm Yellowflash2, seems fake. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if the flowers Konan gave Naruto actually contain something, a failsafe jutsu that activates upon her death… giving Naruto some information.

    Naruto receiving the Rin’negan so quickly like that… 2 quick powerups so close together… that seems odd. I do hope Konan had a plan C though.

  124. i don’t think konoha was all good either. having a couple or a group of people who are “good” isn’t enough to make the entire village or the country “good”.

    naruto’s version of peace isn’t all too obvious anyway. there are people inside konoha who disagree to an extent. not to mention that madara himself was in fact a part of konoha once upon a time.

    i understand kisu’s assessment of konoha and others. but isn’t it a bit too soon to assume that it’s all “not enough”?

    i’ve said it before, i’d like to see the author’s version of peace myself, and i really hope it doesn’t turn into’ a cliche’d idealistic way of “solving things”. as far as i understand, naruto himself isn’t sure what true peace is or how to get there, but he and others are sure that madara’s way isn’t the right way.

    almost every story deals with good and bad. only this story deals with good and bad in “perspect of”, or “related to”. if you ask me, i’d say madara’s view is the most realistic, there is NO SUCH THING AS TRUE PEACE. you cant build unless you destruct, you cant be happy unless someone else is sad, you cant grow unless someone else is going to pay. BUT his way of solving it isn’t all too good. Nagato once shared the same view as madara, only he had his own way of solving things too, which weren’t all that good either.

    if everyone was happy, then no one would be sad. and if no one is sad, no one would know what “happiness” is. humans are beings who understand things when they observe the opposite. u know black because you see white, you know justice because you see injustice, and you know life because you can see death. it’s as easy as that. The “ideal” world does not exist in our realm, it might, however, exist in the realm of the dead? i haven’t been there yet so i wouldn’t know.

    kishimoto has chosen a very difficult subject, one that is impossible to solve, cuz it’s beyond us humans, it’s the essence of philosophy, where “one isn’t only ignorant, he/she’s seriously ignorant” about. this is where religion steps in, because “science” wouldn’t be able to solve this dilemma.

    i’m interested to see what kishi thinks about this. that’s what makes me watch naruto as a manga series.

  125. Naruto isn’t about making everyone happy either though, it’s about living together without violence, being able to settle differences rather than seek revenge or power.

  126. good point, but still you wont achieve that unless it’s on the expense of someone else’s ideals. i’m interested to see how he’s going to achieve that without the “chain reaction”.

    it’s true that all villages now are united against a common enemy. but that doesn’t mean they all share the same ideals.

  127. @lilmoe
    You do know that naruto is a fictional serie?? So anything can happens even world peace by just give one person e flower.. so all that chit chat u wrote trying to be deep ain´t worth much in a fantasy world where Kiishi can make up what ever he want´s

  128. lilmoe’s post actually makes a lot of sense, I personally liked it. In essence alone, it trumped the combined efforts of all the fanfic writers in this site.

  129. @ripcord, the flowers Konan gave Naruto were placed at a memorial for Jiraiya along with the copy of “The Gutsy Ninja”. It was in the volume release of the chapter (and in the anime as well), so there’s no way the flowers could help him.

  130. @someone, fiction mirrors real life. If Kishi does something too outlandish that we cannot fathom, then his series will be sunk. Its as simple as that. If you realize, even in the fantastical setting of Naruto, we can still relate to the characters etc. and we throw our disbelief of the more fantastical elements away just so we can enjoy what is “real” (emotions, decisions etc). It’s called Willing Suspension of Disbelief. If naruto was a story about Robot Zombie monkeys trying to collect bananas from an evil squirrel to stop an eviler overlord from destroying the world, then it wouldnt have even been published.

  131. I dunno kisu, I just might follow it. Anything that has robot zombie monkeys HAS to be worth reading/watching right?

  132. and that’s an idea for you fanfic writers. write something about robot zombie monkeys, that might actually be worth looking at

  133. @kisu well kisu hate to tell u but the reason people love naruto is for the story not the realism. Yea the emotion is part of it but lets be real notbmuch of what goes on in naruto is realistic and personally that’s y I like it. All that mumble jumbo about peace sounds nice too but its unrealistic. Again though I like it because of that. In the manga there is not too much emotion wise I can relate to. And I mean non of my friends have been able to summon snakes at will or kill with lightning and energy balls. That’s what makes it fun to read about people doing things otherwise impossible.

  134. @token
    I think kisu’s point is that a story or its characters has to be at least something a good chunk of people can relate to. look at naruto, a lot of us liked it because most people can relate to his struggles.
    Let’s face it, most of us grew up being a nobody, wanting to be recognised for some thing in some way. Naruto is the epitome of that. He was a NOBODY who turned out be a big SOMEBODY – secretly and in point of our lives, we wanted to be that cool.
    That’s what kisu’s going I believe. Not the clone conjuring, kermit summoning, and lightning shooting out of the hand-part, although I must admit those are the parts that made the “story we can all related too”, this awesome.

  135. So ive just bean on http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Narutopedia and as fas as i know there are no only yang chakra jutsu’s now i dont know whether yang chakra is useless without its counter part but because naruto only has the yang chakra of Kyubi which is the light side! the side that has the vitallity and physically energy. I was wondering if Naruto can use this and create some unique Jutsu’s of his own! and maybe include into his Wind nature element techniques?

    We already know that it can used with wood element as shown when it reacted too yamoto’s jutsu’s and increased the effectiveness significantly! so why cant it be used with Wind to increase the power of techniques.

  136. @someone

    kisu said it nicely, throw out the fictional characteristics of the story and you get a very realistic view of our very lives. THAT is worth a discussion if u ask me. and even if it wasn’t, i’m not sure why u’d be pissed off about people discussing this stuff here. isn’t this blog meant for “fanatics” like us? it’s a question of who belongs where.

    @dont like the clutter:

    dude?

  137. @token

    sorry, but i’m one of those who likes both parts of the story. i don’t like reading things with no “objective” whatsoever except for one “badass” dude “kicking ass”. the events of a fictional story would most likely reflect the experiences of the author.

    fiction was originally developed to try to solve real world problems, or at least to raise a real life issue to the attention of the viewers. it is a “polite” way of addressing those issues instead of pointing out real life figures. it went on to go beyond that, but thus the main point remains.

  138. @clutter again…

    it’s a matter of preference. whether anyone likes one part or the other it’s up to them… what i dont like is when someone tries to force his “preferences” on others, or mock an entire blog. and no, i’m not specifically pointing out someone here…

  139. I understand that Sage mode increases the power of Naruto’s techniques tremendously but yang Chakra from kyubi must be different as it doesnt just naturally make wood elemental jutsu’s grow into trees does it just by being aorund them! Narutos power that eminates from him obviously alters different elemental techniques in some way!

  140. The fox chackra yin or Yang was still a poisonous chackra so that’s how I see why it never effected the trees or nething

  141. Please reado and comment on my new issue of Revenge of the YellowFlash!:)

  142. @Mattmaru, wood is alive, wind isnt

    @dontlikeclutter2, exactly. That’s what I meant Token. What if the characters never talked and only fought, no one could relate to the story and it would die, kishi would be homeless and his little brother wouldn’t be living in his shadow

  143. @kisu yea I slightly misunderstood what u were getting at. My bad on that.

  144. @kisu i know wood is alive but at the time naruto changed the wooden pillars which had flames on top which would suggest pillars are not alive like trees are when formed! So to change actual wood into a living tree is something different!

    So it would also not unrealistic to suggest that wind could be forged into something new as well!

  145. Looks like Madara/Tobi is going after Naruto now, wonder why, I would have thought he would send Sasuke but let’s see how things work out. He probably will attempt capturing him but Naruto is probably going to kick his ass and then he’ll send Sasuke.

  146. @yellowflash2

    Perhaps Tobi is going to try and kidnap Naruto, to put him in the other dimension and Naruto & Sasuke will fight it out there.

  147. Who knows what his idea is behind this one, after all KB is still out too.

    On another note, is One Piece back this week?

  148. @Fire Fist, nope, not til next week

  149. @Kisu, ahh man. That’s what I thought but I had hoped I was wrong. I can’t wait for the return.

  150. new chapter is out everyone

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