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Mart’s Tournament FINAL ROUND!!! (Part1)

Post author: Mart1

As I said in the begining of the tournament, this will be a round robin just like Bob’s tournament. But first, last weeks results:

Jiraiya, Madara, Nagato, and Naruto all made it into the final round with ease as I expected them too (seriously, you Shannaroians are SO predictable…). In the bonus matches things were a little closer: Kabuto lost to Sasuke by 10% and to Naruto by 62%, Gaara lost to Killer Bee by 22%, and finnaly Sasuke lost to Naruto by 50%! Also Poll Q. showed that by a very small margin the majority of you did not want Kabuto to advance, however, since this is my tournament, I can do what I want, and so Kabuto will be featured as the bonus matches this round. Also I have to break these up because of the length I devoted to each fight, part 2 will be out next week.

1. Jiraiya vs. Nagato:

I think this is a very close match up, like all of the ninja in this round these two are incredibly powerfull. Personally I have to give it to Nagato though for a few reasons, however I have already written an entire blog on this here:  https://shannaro.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/a-fair-fight/

2. Madara vs. Naruto:

Power vs. Skill is what this match up comes down too. I don’t think Madara has either his former ability to use hokage level ninjutsu OR his ability to surpress and control the Kyubbi. However, I think he is STILL the strongest Ninja we’ve seen to date, based SOLELY on his ONE ninjutsu ability (yes he is my favorite character and I’ll be using this same arguement for all of his matches.). It comes down to could Naruto hit Madara. Of all the people in this round, I think Naruto has the best chance of success, With Senjutsu his speed goes way up and his chakra sensing is better than Karins. This is on of two ways I think he could hit Madara. He could try to move faster than Madara can react to and out class the Sharingan like the Raikage did to Sasuke’s Amatseru. This probably wouldn’t work, simply because it didn’t work for the Raikage. Madara would be able to teleport somewhere else before Naruto could hit him. However, with his Chakra Sensing he could sense where Madara went, and strike at THAT spot before Madara could realize what was happening. Again though, this probably wouldn’t work, so Naruto would go to what I call the Kabuto method. Just as he did when he couldn’t hit Kabuto, Naruto will wait for Madara to hit HIM, then use his sage mode or Kyubbi powers to take the hit, from here he will counter-attack by grabbing onto Madara and hitting him with a Rasengan. This method has some merit over the other, but I still don’t think it would work. Madara is well aware of his jutsu’s weakness, and just as Kabuto did a hell of a lot of damage, Madara could probably kill Naruto several times over before he got hit by the Rasengan, IF he managed to get cought in the first place. PLUS he’s shown that he is willing to sacrifice his arms to avoid just such a hit, to actually pull this off, Naruto would probably have to grab Madara with multiple clones to stop him from teleporting out. I pretty much know Naruto will eventually take out Madara, but I don’t think either he or Madara have come close to the peak that they will fight at, and I think for now Madara has the edge.

3. Madara vs. Nagato:

The two leaders of Akatsuki. I think Madara is more powerfull, but we have seen much less of his abilities than Nagato’s, I also have to acknowledge the golden rule of Manga, “each villan shall be stronger than the last” (based on when they die or stop fighting permenantly) or to put it in Kishimoto’s terms “the current generation will always surpass the last” and since Madara was introduced after Pein, he will be stronger. Just like with the Naruto fight, it will come down to IF Nagato can hit Madara, which I don’t think he can. Madara has too much experience and knows Nagato well enough to manipulate him, he is cold and calculating and would know how to fight a threat as strong as Nagato because he can’t risk HAVING Nagato as an enemy.

+. Kabuto vs. Nagato:

seven on five seems unfair… except that Kabuto’s Six are each Kage level ninja (And none of that “they might not be able too… crap, for this match, assume they are ALL at their best) in their own right where most of Nagato’s bodies are about Jounin level in terms of fighting power. I’m going to break this down body by body: Sasori vs. Asura Realm: Obviously Sasori wins this one, he could probably tear apart Asura realm as easily as he did Kankuro’s puppets, and if not he still has a legion of puppets to summon that posses unique kekkai genkai and deadly weapons. Kakuzu vs. Deva Realm: Deva Realm can’t really use any of his grand scale techniques, because if any of the bodies were unable to function for even a second they would be dead, so Deva Realm would be limited to Banshou Tenin and (small scale) Shinra Tensei so Kakuzu would be the best bet to take Deva Realm, he could split up his body and use the different monsters to attack within the five second window opening. Deidara vs. Animal Realm: With his clay animals Deidara is a good match for Animal Realm’s summons, except that his are much more expendable, it will be a close match, but in the end the winner probably wouldn’t be much use to the battle afterwards. Nagato and Itachi vs. Nagato, Preta, Naraka, and Human Path: These are more of the defense bodies, so they would probably end up fighting together as Nagato wouldn’t commit them to one on one battles like he would his offense bodies. Kabuto’s Nagato obviously knows the weaknesses of his own paths and can use the jutsu they use. As a dead body there isn’t much aging can do to him, so he probably would use his own bodies instead of the paths, he would have Itachi take out Human Path and Naraka with MS jutsu while he battled himself and Preta until the other fights finished and they could gang up to take down Nagato with whoever survived. Nagato’s advantages are that he has two more bodies and they are all in sync while Kabuto’s bodies can’t be killed by anyone except Nagato himself and the Naraka Path. Kabuto also has the advantage of Edo Tensei Nagato’s knowledge.

Anyway, I’m going on vacation tommarow, so have fun.

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54 Responses

  1. when it comes to the kabuto nagato discussion….. u cannot assume they r at their full potential. If that were the case kabuto would have no need for madara as he could literally just rez all the hokage, have the first beat madara like he did before, and be in control of some of the most powerful ninja ever ( like itachi without an illness, minato, the third hokage, and nagato with the rinnengan) so obviously these corpses are not used at full force: if so kishi has some horrible plot holes and has done a horrible job of showing kabutos ‘development’

  2. & u forgot Nagato’s also a great strategist infighting like when he fooled Konoha’s barrier…he can switch bodies..or even just take them all out instantly through Chibaku tensei, Bansho Tenin pull to impale on Asura Path, or Gedo Mazo

  3. There is a reason I said “(And none of that “they might not be able too… crap, for this match, assume they are ALL at their best)” though in short: 1. ” some of the most powerful ninja ever” that is sort of the point, though DDCS might stop him from bringing back the Hokages (not that this hasn’t been done ALREADY) 2. Nagato can be neutralized by Edo Tensei Nagato so Chibaku Tensei and Gedo Mazo wouldn’t do much.

  4. if nagato ALREADY beat jiraiya hw would he beat him now…….hw annoyin…i dnt understand y ppl r voting 4 the j-man…..sounds like favouriism 2 me n nt wt would happen……i think kabuto wll b ove rated….evn tho hes gt thm bodies…..theres noway there as strong as there original form….less surely that woud b a better plan 2 have…u kno…..kill ur rivals so u then can control there power….hmmmm…any who..

  5. I’m glad you put Kabuto in the finals, he deserves it. Madara vs Nagato was easy, I picked Nagato for the fact all Madara could do is vanish and warp around. Nagato aka Jiraiya killer has all the power and skill to defeat Tobi (self proclaimed Madara). The only chance I see Madara winning is if he grabs the God realm Pain and warps him to a different dimension, but with Nagato having so many eyes, he could easily avoid it with no trouble. Nagato wins.

    Kabuto vs Nagato, This was really hard for me, because Kabuto is the BEST SHINOBI , I repeat he is THE BEST SHONOBI right now. I don’t a clue how Sasuke and Naruto beat him in the last round to be honest. If you look at Kabuto’s Jutsu, He has the perfect Jutsu’s for WAR
    http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kabuto

    And to top it off he has Edo Tensei that surpasses the 2nd Hokage and Orochimaru, and he has Orochimaru’s power. If Kabuto get’s hurt he can heal himself unlike many other shonobi. He has 2 ways to heal his self. I picked Nagato. This is the 8th match I based on favoritism

    Naruto beating Madara???? C’mon people, Naruto is still trying to learn things about him self. I guess he started puberty late, I would of been smashed Hinata. What’s wrong with Naruto? Jiraiya vs Nagato. Even if Jiraiya knew all Nagato’s Justu, what difference does that make???

    Sasuke didn’t know anything about Diedara nor Danzo, and he still prevailed.

  6. I meant to say have a clue how Naruto and Sasuke beat him last round

  7. Well nagato said after he killed Jiraiya that if he didn’t have the suprise of the 3 other bodies to jump him when his guard was down then Jiraiya would have beat him. And as for the Kabuto vs Nagato fight walmart1 only gave a battle plan for kabuto’s side. The pain body that absorbs all ninjutsu. Attacks would want to be the who would fight Kakuzu cuz then kakuzu would be totally ineffective. But anyways nagato would still win lol. And as far as the naruto vs madara fight everyone is just voting for who they want to win or who they know is gonna end up wining after the manga is over. But in reality naruto doesn’t stand a chance. Nobody has been able to hit madara yet execpt for the bug dude but that was luck cuz he was veing pulled in and he wasn’t actualy fighing back lol.
    But anyways I liked all the match- ups they were cool

  8. God it iritates me how ppl are saying kabuto is the best ninja right now over everyone… if thats the case why is he making a truce with madara? if hes so powerful just massacre all of akatski on his way to sasuke lol what a joke. KAbuto is not the best. We have seen nothing but this jutsu and havenot see kabuto in combat for ages so I think its a little premature to call him the best shinobi. I kno i kno edo tensei is a powerful jutsu, but it takes more than powerful jutsu to be considered the best…. oro was considered my many to have the most powerful and forbidden jutsus and yet no one would dare call him the best when he was alive…..

  9. jaraiya could of beat nagato if all 6 bodies where there at the begining with the genjutsu in sage mode!!!

    ofcourse naruto will beat madara! i mean come on! once naruto has controll of the ninetails NO ONE I REPEAT NO ONE will beat him. not even sasuke becz he wont controll the kyubbi wen naruto already has control of it!!

    Nagato vs kabuto>???? real tough one! becuz nagato is not invincible to genjutsu and itachi is a beast with genjutsu!!!!

  10. Nagato Vs. jiraya

    This has really already been settled in the manga. It doesn’t really matter if Nagato surprised jiraya with the fact that he had three more bodies with unknown skills waiting for him just in case the other three failed. Jiraya had pulled off a few surprises of his own. Nagato wasn’t expecting a genjutsu from jiraya and I’m willing to bet he wasn’t expecting sage mode either. Jiraya really did show off his skills as a ninja. He certainly put Nagato in a bind a few times, and half that fight he wasn’t even in sage mode. He had his jutsu and rinnigan almost figured out just from that one fight, when under serious danger. Sure if jiraya knew more about Nagato’s abilites beforehand the fight would’ve been more insane and the possiblity of him winning would increased. However, a little more likely than not, the result would still be the same. Deception is still one of the key tools of a ninja battle.

    Naruto vs. madara
    Unless Madara is hiding some other skills that has yet to be seen,and if there are weaknesses in his technique, it really boils down if naruto is able to hit him. I’m sure one full hit from that rasen shiriken would send even madara packing, but so far there’s really no way madara would allow himself to be hit by that. I’m sure Madara’s techinique has a weakness somewhere. Maybe he can only activate conscious and if Naruto is quick enough(maybe thats one of the reasons why the 4th hokage was a threat to him, cause of the speed of his jutsus)and is able to anticipate Madara’s movement, he could get him. But even that’s doubtful. Madara has too much experience under his belt to be caught off guard directly llike that by someone like naruto. So for right now, I’m saying madara has naruto beat.

    Nagato Vs. Madara
    Same thing with naruto Vs. madara really. It kinda still boils down to if Nagato can hit Madara with his jutsu. Techinically Nagato would have a better chance of striking Madara than Naruto because his experience and the speed of his justus are higher than Naruto. However, Madara knows him well. He knows his strengths as well as his weak points and probably would fight accordingly.. Still we don’t know much about Madara as far as his weak points as well as any techniques he might have under his arsonal. But for right know I’d go for Madara.

    Kabuto Vs. Nagato
    I could write a book on this fight cause there’s a lot to go over, but at this point I’m tired and hungry so this is my summary.

    I really can’t decide if I believed Kabuto is indeed as strong as some people seem to think or not. However, even if he wasn’t I have no doubt in my mind at this point in the story this would be the most entertaining fight to watch out of the four battles. Based on the true extent of Kabuto using the edo tensei technique and its strengths an consquences to it’s user, I think it can really only go three ways: completely one sided, or dead even to the point that it can go either way or a tie.
    I think that if all the dead akatsuki members were summoned completely at 100% as well as kabuto having enough strength after that to skillfully as he always does, than add a mix of orochimaru’s strengths inside him, I don’t think nagato would last very long in my opinion. However, If they were at diminsh strength(maybe 50%, any lower and I think the victory would be Nagato’s) this fight could go either way. Each of them has their own advantages and weaknesses that both of them are smart and skillfull enough to take advantage of. This would be more of a war than just enother fight.

  11. @Token,
    Can you name me 1 shonobi LIVING right now that can beat Kabuto?? Naruto always needs training, Sasuke hasn’t fully developed EMS, and Tobi is afraid of the coffin Kabuto summoned. Be honest their is no one right now who could test Kabuto. Nobody is saying he’s the best based off the fact he has Orochimaru’s powers. People like myself are saying he’s the best based off his OWN powers, with Orochimaru’s power, and he claims his version of Edo Tensei is far greater than Oro and the 2nd Hokage

    http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kabuto

    Kabuto is the perfect War Shonobi. He could put people to sleep with Temple of Nirvana, he could go underground like Diedara and Tobi, He can use Camouflage. Sasuke, Neji, and Hinata could probably detect his camouflage, but even so how could they sop Edo Tensei, and don’t base Kabuto’s Edo Tensei with Orochimaru. Kabuto stated he took the technique to a whole different level.

    One question to all, Is Anko underrated??? Or is it that we haven’t seen to much from her to put her in discussions. I just read she knows Several forbidden techniques taught by Orochimaru, but she never had the hatred that Sasuke had to use the curse mark properly.

  12. @byakugan invasion: who says this is even the real edo tensei? don’t u think its possible he might be able to mimic it but not do the actual jutsu? WE all know or should that kabuto is a ninja who is not a power type fighter like naruto or even sasuke lately. he has always been into deception and all that. He has actually created a perfect replica of people before including sai. Now I could name a couple ppl that could prob beat kabuto: naruto with the key in his hands can unlock double his power and more with full access to the fox chakra, sasuke has already defeated danzo, fought the whole kage summit and now has sasuke’s eyes. What has kabuto done? nkilled some nameless ninja… .wow thats impressive. and U said he stated he took the jutsu to a whole other level??? well maybe hes lying lol thats one of his methods. So until we see these bodies and stuff actually in action, there is no way u can claim hes the best. He hasnt done ANYTHING. Ppl can’t get that at all… who has kabuto killed/beaten? sasuke has danzo under his belt, naruto has pein under his belt. Kabuto has????

  13. btw love how u said with his own powers and than added with oro’s too lol. Kabuto can’t hold a candle to naruto or sasuke rite now. WE just dont kno yet what powers kabuto really has yet so until then hes not the best .If he actually did the real edo tensei and has improved dramtically than yes he is the best. until than zip it lol. he has not proven anything yet like the ninja so far.

  14. and i meant itachis eyes not sasukes

  15. come on guys… naruto isn’t the strongest character yet… lets be real.

  16. @token
    Like I said NOW, with Naruto not knowing how to control the 9 tails and he just got the key, and Sasuke not fully developed with EMS, how either one of them can beat Kabuto? I’ll lean more towards Sasuke then Naruto for the fact we haven’t seen EMS and Naruto admitted he wasn’t ready for Sasuke.

    Token have you seen Kabuto vs Tsunade?? Actually it was Kabuto vs Tsunade, Shizune, and Naruto, and he was whoopin Tsunade old ass, he wasn’t even trying to kill her because he needed her help to heal Orochimaru.

    Who has he killed or beaten, he would of killed Naruto if it was one one one (Tsunade had to heal him).

  17. He probably could of killed Tsunade if Shizune didn’t throw him off guard. He killed off those Takigakure Ninjas, which isn’t saying much, but still don’t act like Kabuto is a push over because he isn’t

    Ok maybe I am giving Kabuto too much credit, but until we see a one on one, you can’t judge Kabuto. He fights by himself most of the time always getting ganged up by leaf villagers. Will just have to wait and see. Till then I stand by my word

    I agree with ssj. To me Naruto is like the Gohan of this series. He’s a cry baby. I know he’s the main character but Damn! What about everybody else. Shino “the trump card” who destroyed the enimies base in Shippuden the movie

  18. @byakugan

    Since ur bringing up old battles i figured id remind u of one too! one where kabuto gets pawnd big time by naruto (4tails) along with oro and sakura!! naruto sends kabuto flying with nothing but pure chakara! lol a

    the naruto that fought kabuto back then is long gone!!

    since people are speculating about wut kabuto can actually do with out it being done yet, i figured i would do some speculating of my own! i say dat naruto learns to controll the kyubii in the next few chapters! Sage chakara + fox chakara= pawnage no matter how many coffins kabuto has! heck i’ll even go as far and say that ‘that jutsu” is his dads lighting tech! imagine 1000’s of naruto’s flying through the air teleporting and wielding rasengans and frog katas!!!! No one could beat naruto dennn!!!!!

  19. @thebeast

    I forgot about that 1. Okay let me stop offending Naruto after all he is our Hero of this series. I can’t wait to this war happens so Kabuto can show off. I’m expecting this war to be a long war.

    You laugh about Kabuto getting knocked out by Naruto 4 tails. Madara has all of the 7 beast. I smell a pay back coming.

    I’m just saying this current Naruto can’t beat Kabuto, atleast not yet. If he learns how to control the 9 tails, Can’t Kabuto use Itachi to restrain the 9 tails??? I don’t know maybe a dumb question, because we didn’t see Nagato restrain the Kyuubi and he has the eyes of the sage of 6 paths

    Kabuto might not be the best rest now to some people, but he is definitely someone to look out for

  20. yo yo guys hold up. Nagato vs Jiraiya = Nagato wins. ITs too obvious, and I’ve gone through so many debates about this already. If any of you are up to the challenge of proving me wrong (John), then by all means, try.

  21. “Deva Realm can’t really use any of his grand scale techniques, because if any of the bodies were unable to function for even a second they would be dead,” – Correct me if I’m wrong, but in your scenario, isnt Nagato ALSO on the battlefield? If this is the case, then he can make Deva use all the large-scale jutsus he wants. He only cut connections with the other bodies because he was so far away and had to increase the signals. So Deva could literally blow everyone away, and let’s not forget that Nagato CAN use Shinra Tensei as well.

  22. @Kisu
    I’m up for the challenge, just got some things to do, then I’l argue with you. Jiraiya FTW
    That’s TOO obvious. 8)

  23. @kisuzahi
    No point arguing. Kishi definately intended for Nagato to be stronger than Jiraya no matter how you slice it. Not only for the reasons you’ll probably post sooner or later, it kinda supports the “New gerneration surpassing the Old” theme that has been part of the naruto series since the beggining. Only the true jiraya fanboys would say otherwise.

  24. hw has kabuto got all this hpe,,,,there probably jus sum dead dummies….lol…naruto nt ready for 4 eyes…..he jus come off the back of beating the fake leader of akatsuki….what u talking about he aint ready 4 kabuto…….hes done NOTHING 2 deserve any off this hype yet…ALTHOUGH this last dummy in the coffin has got me interested…..im tellin u guys….kabuto is gonna b cannon fodder for sasukes new EMS powers…..loooool….uchiha 4 eeeeever

  25. i was suppose 2 say HYPE not HPE…..(1st line)

  26. @DarthUchiha18
    Well, actually Kishi’s intention was not to show that Nagato was stronger than Jiraiya, his intention was to kill off Jiraiya because he needed Naruto to grow up and feel pain, it was necessary plot wise, what do you think would have happened had Jiraya killed Nagato? The story would have ended, right then and there, if Jiraiya pawns Nagato, like he could have, then the whole story goes to hell, if Jiraiya pawns Nagato the Rinnegan becomes worthless storywise, Jiraiya’s death had to become the catalyst for Naruto revenge and eventual growth. Age wise Nagato was pretty close to Jiraiya’s age, surprisingly, if we do the math we can see that, Yahiko who was the same age as Nagato died between the ages of 25-30, as stated in Narutowikia, now assuming that right after the Third Ninja war, because that’s when he died, during the Third Shinobi war, let’s assume it ended right there and then, the Kyuubi attacks and 16 years later, the present storyline Nagato is at minimum between the ages of 41-46, so he is not the new generation, and even if he were only a few select ever surpass the previous and specific people only, Naruto in time will surpass Jiraiya, just like Sasuke in time will surpass Itachi, and Lee will surpass Guy etc…Yeah, I’ll admit, I might be a Jiraiya fan boy, but everyone is a fan of someone else, for whatever reason, I’m his fan sure, but because he is so powerful and each time he was present provided comedic relief and if I can use logic to prove that he is at the pinnacle of the ninja world I will 8) , he was the Naruto of his generation, while alive he still grew, you stop growing after you die, remember that 😉 . So who is your favorite character or did he already get eliminated?

    @Kisu
    Well I’ll start by answering your previous comment, sure Deva Path could use Shinra Tensei at a massive scale, but Jiraiya would just use Toad Mouth Trap to protect himself, if I remember correctly Katsuyu or whatever Tsunades slug is called, saved many people from that attack by enveloping them and cushioning them from the blast, the Toad Mouth Trap would protect Jiraiya from the manuever, just like Katsuyu did for others, it took no less than Amaterasu to destroy it, that would leave Nagato and Deva Path as easy pickings, you say he could use that massive Shinra Tensei like if it was nothing, but it has it’s drawbacks for one it shortens Nagato’s lifespan regardless of distance and secondly it leaves him without his most useful abilities like Shinra Tensei, all the while the connection to the other bodies is severed for a period of time regardless of distance, leaving him very vulnerable for Jiraiya’s attacks.
    Jiraiya FTW
    Your turn Kisu 8)

  27. @John, lol, let’s get started then, shall we?

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/429/10/
    Here he cuts the connections with the bodies due to the distance he is away from them, so he doesn’t need to cut connections if he is on the battlefield. Now no one at the blast’s center survived, only those on the outer part of the crater as seen here:

    Center http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/429/12-13/

    Outer Parts http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/429/12-13/ (on the next page Sakura survived because she was far from the blast’s center) http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/429/16-17/

    On the battlefield, Jiraiya would be in the direct center of the blast. Plus he has 6 other bodies to face while either Nagato or Deva Path do that jutsu. And Jiraiya is susceptible to soul draining and chakra draining (the latter we’ve seen). And while Jiraiya’s Mega Super Duper Ultra Rasengan can hollow out a mountain, could it hollow out Chibaku Tensei http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/439/06-07/ which makes the mountains look like pebbles.

    But this particular argument in my above comment was directed at Mart because he said Deva couldnt use any large-scale jutsu. Your turn John (or any other Jiraiya fan, admittedly, I too am a huge Jiraiya fan, but I only liked Pain after I saw the Konoha invasion and because of what he did to Hinata)

  28. @ John
    I hate to jump in on your defense of Jiraiya, but i have to say, as a huge fan of his, he is not beatin nagato… it wasnt close in the manga and it wont be close again… First off, if Jiraiya is hit with those chakra receptor rods again its over, and if he doesnt defeat the jutsu absorbing guy or da ressurection guy its over. And u point out that his shira tensei could be defended by a frog is ridiculous, for one he used the attack as sort of an in general offensive manuever, sort of like artillery fire ( im in da army so bear wit me) he didnt have a specific target jus an area he wanted to attack, and dats effective…. But artillery fire is most effective and dangerous if u dircet it a specific target, so if Nagato would focus shinra tensei at jiraiya, do u really think hes walkin away from that move?

  29. @Sirius Prime
    Well, to be fair, Jiraiya was already fatigued when he got stabbed by the chakra receiver, after rapid blood loss from having his arm forcefully amputated, who wouldn’t right?, even the Raikage, who chopped off his own arm, asked for a Medic immediately after wards. How was that not close? If I recall, before Jiraiya had his arm severed, Pain didn’t even land a single attack on Jiraiya, not once if I recall, through most of the fight we only saw the fight through Jiraiya’s perspective, but I would dare guess that Pain or Nagato was equally worried. Had Jiraiya not gotten his arm severed, Jiraiya could have eventually figured out all of Pain’s powers and fought accordingly getting rid of that reviving one first and then the jutsu absorbing one allowing him to use his Ninjutsu which could make the fight easier, but after having his arm severed not only was his strength waning, but he could no longer use Ninjutsu and his Taijutsu was dropping in power, slowly growing weaker, as a result of blood loss. My main point is if Nagato was so strong and he was so confident in his ability, why did he have to fight in such a roundabout way? meaning using an ambush, we could have seen a more epic fight, we could have seen both fight to their full ability, but Jiraiya was going in blind, while Nagato had time to prepare his other bodies and what not, the point is that just because Jiraiya was blind sided that doesn’t make his weaker than Nagato.
    As to the other part of your argument ,well, I might not be in the military, but I do know that Shinra Tensei is not a jutsu which can be used to bombard someone, for one that massive Shinra Tensei takes a while to recover from, secondly if its to focused then it just becomes a regular sized Shinra Tensei which is not exactly a K.O. move, the first time Kakashi got hit with it, Kakashi was all like WTF what was that? but it wasn’t a K.O move, and it stands to reason that Jiraiya who has a lot more stamina would not get knocked out, like Hinata or Kakashi would. My point about Toad Mouth Trap defending against a large scale Shinra Tensei is that if Katsuyu, Tsunades slug, which was not obliterated, could withstand the impact, then Toad Mouth Trap which is also somewhat elastic like Katsuyu could also withstand the impact to the same degree or more, a lesser more focused Shinra Tensei would just be a smaller version, no different. Shinra Tensei for all intensive purposes is a one wave technique, like a shock wave, it isn’t constant. So yeah, I picture him walking away and don’t worry I don’t mind your comments, just trying to convert you and maybe you will argue for my side, namely Jiraiya’s side 😉

  30. Let me clarify my artillery statement… Artillery doesnt have to fire at a continious rate in order to be effective, or as i like to say, to get your point across… One 500 lb shell is more than enough fire power to make a point… So wat i was sayin, or tryin to say, if u take all dat force, and directed not on an area but a specific target, lets say a house in The Leaf Village instead of all of the Village then i dont think no ones coming outta that house… And da point dat there were survivors is ok, because his attack wasnt to kill everybody, jus da village, and he did dat… All area based attacks have survivors… The biggest area based attack in history, the Nagasaki and Hiroshima atomic bombings had hundreds of survivors, but that bomb got its point across… And also u point out how Jiraiya could defend this or that, but what attack from Jiraiya would be effective

  31. @ Sirius Prime
    I get what you are saying and in keeping with the Hiroshima and Nagasaki analogy and all that, if you wanted to target a specific area in Japan, for example like the emperors home or something, you wouldn’t use an atomic bomb, a smaller sized, controlled explosion could get the point across and still your target would be dead, why waste an atomic bomb if you only have one target in mind, and think about this how about you target a specific target, like an individuals home, you let the “Atomic” Bomb drop, what makes you think that you will actually kill your target, what’s to say they don’t have a half-mile subterranean bunker, not only did you fail to kill your target you also managed to waste an atomic bomb with no results what so ever to show for it and its not like you have the authority to use as many atomic bombs as you like, now back to Naruto why would Pain/Nagato carry out a large scale attack if he was only targeting one target, namely Jiraiya, a Shinra Tensei on a smaller scale would not only save him extra chakra and life expenditure, but it wouldn’t leave him in a powerless state.
    Well, aside from the chakra absorbing path and Deva Path all other paths are susceptible to a quick Rasengan, Jiraiya’s summons could take care of the summoning Pain’s summons or even that chakra absorbing path for that matter. Once that chakra absorbing path is gone Jiraiya’s collaboration ninjutsus or common jutsu can take care of the rest of the Pain’s, some examples of Ninjutsu he could use include Fire Style: Toad Flame Bombs, Earth Style: Dark Swamp, Ninja Art: Wild Lion Mane, Fire Style: Dragon Flame Bombs etc… The beauty of Jiraiya’s jutsu is that they are so simple, yet he makes them formidable, none of them carry unnecessary risk and yet he makes them powerful through skill alone, it was halfway through the battle that Jiraiya realized that each could only use one power, he was freaking out because he thought all of them all three shared the same powers, since they had the same eyes, imagine if all 6 Pain’s could absorb chakra, manipulate gravity, summon, rip souls etc.. you get what I am saying, then that would be impossible for any one to face, three people like that would be impossible to beat let alone six, but here is were he realizes that Pain is not so tough….

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/378/14/

    after he realized this he beat them soon after, he started using Ninjutsu again, Fire Style: Dragon Flame Bomb’s and Earth Style: Dark Swamp, respectively, kicked that summoning Pain and finally that Sage Genjutsu kicked in which sealed the deal further. So Jiraiya could have beaten Pain/ Nagato he was just a victim of Kishi’s plot, nothing more, does that answer your argument. Jiraiya Rules 8) Peace out.

  32. @ John
    Pein might not can use all 6 powers individually but, Nagato can… See the beauty in Nagato and his Rinnegan is that the 6 Paths of Pein was jus another jutsu… He chose to split them up… Its the guy in the wheelchair thingy who’s running the show, the guy who killed everybody then revived them (awesome jutsu) And need i remind u that most of Jiraiya’s jutsus are nature based namely fire and earth. Nagato has access to all 6, so doesnt the circle of power come into… rock beats scissors, scissors cut paper, paper beat rocks kind of a thing kishi has goin on with earth, water, wind, and lightning, so if it an element battle, Nagato’s winning that too…

  33. My comment is still awaiting moderation 8|

  34. @Sirius Prime
    Nagato might have all the powers,but you see, the beauty in that is that Nagato, as a single person, might have all those abilities, but he is still susceptible to its drawbacks one tech at a time, he might be able to use chakra absorption, but he is still in a wheel chair, not much taijutsu going around, he might use Shinra Tensei, but that 5 second delay would still apply, he might summon, but Jiraiya has summons as well, he might have a spring loaded chakra blade, but if Jiraiya can dodge multiple missiles coming at him, a spring loaded blade shouln’t be a problem. You see Jiraiya didn’t lose a battle of elements, he was killed because he got ambushed, that element wheel in were one element beats another, like water beating fire, fire beating wind, wind beating lightning, lightning beating earth and earth beating water only applies if the jutsus are of the same strength, then and only then is elemental consideration applied. We have seen example in which Fire has vaporized Water, Water go through Earth techniques, when water is highly pressurized and so on and considering Jiraiya specializes in elemental combos, I really don’t see him losing a battle of elemental techniques, and if we take Sage Mode into account his elemental jutsu, and jutsu overall become even more powerful. Nagato’s revival jutsu comes at a heavy price his own life force is being used to revive people, and if he wants to repair each Pain he needs to feed it to the Seventh Path’s mouth, other wise he can’t revive them since the Path’s he was controlling were long dead, you know what I mean? So unless he has the bodies to repair he can’t revive them, that is why he was using that revival Pain to repair the others, it’s not like he can bring them back to life without first making the repairs, since they were technically dead along time ago. Just because Nagato has access to the mainstream elemental jutsu, that doesn’t mean they are more powerful by comparison. Jiraiya Rules. 8) Peace out.

  35. @John
    Last point maybe…
    Accordin to Jiraiya, there isnt a jutsu that Nagato cant do… In Jiraiya’s own words Nagato can master any technique, and do so easily… and if Shinra Tensei is the benchmark for powerful ass jutsu’s Im sure Nagato can bring a few powerful elemental jutsu’s to the table also

  36. @Sirious Prime
    Nagato might be able to master a technique, but what means does he have for combining this so called jutsu, we have never seen him do so, when has Nagato ever used elemental collaboration ninjutsu by himself, just because he has the potential to be able to do such jutsu, that does not mean he has even tried, also take into account that while Jiraiya is an expert at collaboration ninjutsu he also has other jutsu that don’t really on elements. For all intensive purposes Jiraiya has mastered the art of collaboration while Nagato can at most master the technique to start collaborating and also take into account the level of mastery, he could master a jutsu, Jiraiya could master it further. get what I’m saying? Jiraiya rules.8) Peace out.

  37. @ John
    Now ur losin me….
    We are talkin about S-class or Kage-class ninja here… I dont know off da top of my head which is the higher designation, but if there’s a ceiling to the level of a jutsu Jiraiya and Nagato both reached it… So your case for who has mastered this better than the other is illogical since they both are jutsu masters of the highest caliber…

  38. @Sirious Prime
    Yes, I agree that both Jiraiya and Nagato are at the pinnacle of the ninja world, both are S-class or Kage-class ninja, but even among the Kages and S-class ninja there are distinct level differences, Hidan and Kakuzu were both S-class ninja, but they don’t hold a candle to Nagato or Jiraiya, as I’m sure you would agree. Even among the Kages we believe some Kages to be stronger than others, are they all Kages? yes, but some are stronger than others and each specialize in some area or another over the other Kages, Nagato specializes in his Rinnegan techniques, they are his bread and butter, while Jiraiya specializes in his Elemental Combo Techniques and supplementary techniques, both specialize in some area or another. I’ll tell you what, I would be willing to admit that Nagato and Jiraiya are of the same skill and strength, if you just give me that Jiraiya would have had a better chance of winning solely on experince, but only marginally. We can both walk away from this argument and know that our choices would only based on opinion, I argue for Jiraiya, because at one point in another forum, I saw people mentioning Deidara and Kakashi, as well as other less powerful characters, beating Jiriaya and that ticks me off, belittling Jiraiya like that. I will only continue arguing should others make it seem they are belittling Jiraiya. I have a lot of respect for Nagato I believe he would honestly beat Madara and Naruto, as well as Kabuto, I won’t vote for Madara since he hasn’t shown much offensive capabilities, except for punching, I won’t vote for Kabuto based solely on one new jutsu, a cool jutsu, but still one new jutsu nonetheless. Nagato could still beat Naruto, Naruto will eventually surpass every other character, but as it is right now, he hasn’t. What do you think? Jiraiya rules, as well as, Nagato 😉 Peace out.

  39. @ John
    I have to say ur 100% right on… The Nagato/Jiraiya argument is like pickin peas… They are both top notch ninja, and it’s difficult to read, listen, or whatever medium is out that puts Jiraiya or Nagato under Madara and especially Kabuto… I think I made a point right after he wasreintroduced that folks are being persuaded by one jutsu, and that’s makin him the new flavor of the month… But Kabuto pre Oro makeover, or post Oro makeover would never beat Jiraiya or Naruto…
    And on a side note, and uve been gracious in our discussions, so i wanted your opinion, how is it that people can knock Naruto for always needing training, and uplifting Sasuke for bein Sasuke…. One would think that earning your power vs being given your power is more beneficial… What has Sasuke actually done to prove top ninja billing… He of course beat Danzou who’s ability was a complete suprise to me, and i hated to see him be killed off, but on the other hand, and people quickly forget this, Sasuke was utterly dimantled by Killer Bee… It wasnt even close… His genjutsu didnt work, taijutsu didnt work, nor did his ninjutsu, and this was all after he was “given” Itachi’s powers, and if it wasnt for Karen and Juugo to revive him he’d be dead… Not to take this too personal, but common sense has to prevail at some point, and EMS or not, gifts given dont measure up to gifts earned….

  40. @Sirius Prime
    Your right it’s like picking peas, to each his own, and as to my opinion on people still liking Sasuke and belittling Naruto well it comes down to this. I have always respected the fact that Naruto has had to earn his power, albeit with the Kyuubi in him, but that wasn’t his choice, over the fact that Sasuke is a supposed natural genius and yet is given hand-me-downs by others. It’s true that Naruto trains, but, I say, what’s so bad about that? as he trains he actually masters the skills he is training for and uses them effectively, as opposed to Sasuke who gets his hand me down gifts and tries to use them in actual battle almost ending in his death every single time. As you mentioned when Sasuke got his own Magenkyo Sharingan he though he could beat Killer Bee, and look what happened he almost got killed twice on just that one battle, Sasuke then thinks he’s strong enough to take on the Kages in his pursuit of Danzo and nearly gets killed of again and believe me when I say he would have died had it not been for the timely intervention of Zetsu and Madara on two different occasions. The thing is that everyone thinks the world of Sasuke because everyone he has fought has used Kitty gloves on him and as a result that makes him look good, the only possible exception being Deidara, and even then Deidara killed himself. The thing is that Sasuke in his desperation for power, when he saw Naruto gradually surpass him, resorted to being Orochimaru’s experiment, he allowed himself to be implanted with the Curse Mark and started making use of its power, since he started feeling inadequate he made that choice and now in his desperation for power he takes Itachi’s eyes to get a power boost. You are right when you say power earned is better than power given, not only are you more familiar with that power, it actually becomes your own. Here is a simple analogy, suppose you work for a company, you work for many hours and do good quality hard work, you have a friend, that is to say the least, lazy and doesn’t take work seriously, you advance in your position slowly, but you become familiar with your job in each level advancement, your friend is dating the CEO’s daughter and he becomes a business partner out of nowhere, you eventually become a business partner as well, who do you think will have more skill in doing their job? Its the same in the Military, those who have connections advance at a faster pace, but that does not make them more skilled than those who work hard for their position. So in a nutshell Sasuke’s powers while formidable are no match for Naruto who masters each and every single jutsu he posses before trying them, I don’t know why people still believe Sasuke to be better, after all EMS is not invincible. Sorry for the long rant 😉

  41. I’m back… and I pretty much disagree with everything:

    1. “if thats the case why is he making a truce with madara?” because despite ALL of his power, he still needs allies. He can win any fight he prepares for but without the Edo Tensei bodies he is weak. He could probably power through most people but eventually they would gang up on him. He also probably wants the Bijju and Kenzentai just like Madara.

    2. “. So Deva could literally blow everyone away”: I disagree, even if they were closer the time period of Shinrei Tensei is unrelated to connections, it’s more based off of chakra build up. His attacks would be slightly more powerful chakra wise but still have the same weaknesses. Also again, Edo Tensei can counter any of the gravity attacks with gravity attack of his own at an equal level.

    3. “Age wise Nagato was pretty close to Jiraiya’s age”: not really, when Jiraiya was in his thirties Nagato was like eight. This even makes sense with Nagato being 40 and Jiraiya being in his sixties.

    4. “Toad Mouth Trap would protect Jiraiya from the manuever”: a. Shinrei Tensei is MUCH stronger than amatseru. b. that frog would literally explode if Pein was in it because unlike Kayatsu who is a slug and can flatten/slash split multiple times/heal the toad cannot. c. Kayatsu was much farther than the toad would be. (who would litterally be only a few feet from him at most if he was inside the toad). Also since it’s only the inside of a toad that Jiraiya summons, it would be useless as a defensive jutsu in terms of launched attack stopping because of it unless that attack can be contained within the stomach’s area.

    5. “why did he have to fight in such a roundabout way?”- BECAUSE HE IS A NINJA. Stealth is kind of important to those guys…

    6. “all other paths are susceptible to a quick Rasengan”- Not really. Asura Realm is about Sage Mode Jiraiya’s speed, and even though he got hit by Naruto’s Sage Rasengan, Naruto has mastered Sage Mode in terms of raw power a lot better than Jiraiya, plus he had already battled the most of any body when he was hit (except for maybe Deva/Animal). Oh and that “Jiraiya was surprised” bull won’t work, because so was Asura realm. The other three are more his suplimentary bodies than fighting ones, though this method probably wouldn’t work all that well against animal realm if he was using summons (he died because he was basically standing still after his summons were defeated)

    7. “Jiraiya’s summons could take care of the summoning Pain’s summons” I say they are even, not that Jiraiya’s summons would win, considering that their entire battle before Jiraiya went sage mode and Nagato summoned more bodies was summons vs. summons to the point of a standstill.

    8. “but if Jiraiya can dodge multiple missiles coming at him,”: I thought he got hit by those, and they were at a distance, where as even Naruto in sage mode got hit by the wheel chair rods.

    9. “Nagato’s revival jutsu comes at a heavy price his own life force is being used to revive people” He was still able and willing to do it multiple times in one battle. and “other wise he can’t revive them since the Path’s he was controlling were long dead” He was able to summon said mouth himself (twice)

    10. “when has Nagato ever used elemental collaboration ninjutsu by himself” He was shown with the ability to do collaboration jutsu with Yahiko and Kohnan (lots of people forget that he summoned Konan, though he did say she would be no use against Jiraiya) and since he has both of them present he could pull off some, combine that with the fact that he controls all of the bodies at once, I don’t think it would be all that hard for him.

    11. “if you just give me that Jiraiya would have had a better chance of winning solely on experince, but only marginally.”: I don’t think the twenty years Jiraiya had on Nagato would make all that much different, as they have both fought Kage level opponents multiple times.

  42. How can Edo Tensei counter Nagato’s gravity jutsu with a gravity jutsu of its own, and also on the same scale?

  43. Edo Tensei refering to the Nagato body who can use Chibaku Tensei on the same level (since it is the same person)

  44. @ Mart,
    Are u sayin that the Edo Tensei version of Nagato, and Itachi for that matter r of equal strenght to the original version? If so how, when they dont have their power source… their eyes… And where is the chakra supply comin from?

  45. That is exactly what I’m saying, as when Oro. Used Edo Tensei all of the ninja’s abilities including Kekkai Genkai. The reason their eyes weren’t shown is because they weren’t restored with a seal by Kabuto yet (since he didn’t actually fight madara) and any claim that he is bluffing is rediculous 1. Tobi could see the lie via sharingan and 2. He would be signing his own death warent because Madara would kill him or send him overconfidently into a battle to die.

  46. @Mart1
    So nice of you to show yourself, well in reality Jiraiya was in his late teens to early adult hood between 18-24, If you care to do the math be my guess or you can take me at my word, when he first met Nagato, Yahiko and Konan, they were at most 13 years apart or 8, around the same generation. Sage Mode is Sage Mode how ever you look at it, both offer the same advantages to the same extent, what was implied about Naruto mastering Sage Mode better that Jiraiya is the way they activated it, while Jiraiya required the two toad Sages, Naruto did not, he found a way around it. In fact the two toad sages added more jutsu options to Jiraiya’s arsenal so in a sense Jiraiya’s Sage Mode had more versatility than Naruto’s, skill wise Jiraiya is faster and stronger than Naruto, both in stats and what is seen in the anime and manga, and if you look closely Jiraiya never got hit by the missiles, he dodge every last one of them and as I said before Naruto will one day surpass Jiraiya, but as it stands you can’t be comparing them yet, their fighting styles are different. Now for the Nagato Kabuto fight, why are you assuming Kabuto would summon a Nagato when facing Nagato? That’s not how it works, if he is facing Nagato you can’t be assuming he will summon a Nagato out of nowhere since Nagato isn’t dead. Have you thought about the fact that Nagato can also use Edo Tensei? he does have the Rinnegan after all. All I’m saying is that I’m not going to vote for a person based on solely one new jutsu they show, their reliance on one jutsu often leads to their downfall.

  47. p.s. that goes for Madara as well.

  48. @ Mart,
    There’s no way in Naruverse does it say those cheap imitations are as powerful as the originals, and those tag implants dont restore their power it suppresses their free will…

  49. *enters whine like a b*tch mode* pfft, i dot feel like joining this discussion anymore 8(

  50. “is the way they activated it, while Jiraiya required the two toad Sages”: No he also grew warts and such, and his speed stat doesn’t take Sage Mode (a form of ninjutsu) into account.

    “That’s not how it works,”: as I explained on the Kankuro vs. Sasori fight, that IS how it works since both hit their peaks at different times, the two get to fight using the best of their abilities, i.e. Kabuto with the Nagato body in his posesion.

  51. “There’s no way in Naruverse does it say those cheap imitations are as powerful as the originals, and those tag implants dont restore their power it suppresses their free will…” actually Orochimaru says EXACTLY that they are as strong as their former selves and the tags do BOTH restoration AND free will surpesion.

    John: Nagato can’t: 1. He lacks seals 2. He lacks the hand signs 3. He lacks the mastery.

  52. @Mart
    Ok I will concede the Edo Tensei is a beastly jutsu.. It may or may not bring forth a duplicate of the original, but the imitation individual does possess all abilities including those associated wit havin blood limit power… Ok but after givin this some thought, Nagato had the Rinnegan, so therefore there was not a jutsu on earth he could not do, and this is accordin to Jiraiya, that means he could, if he wanted to, do chidori, or sasuke’s krillin. The only exception would be a bijuu based technique… Second thought was cancellations of Nagato’s Shinra Tensei or Chibaku Tensei isnt feasible… Since the source of those techniqes is gravitational, then the two will only increase its power, and that would mean major suckage for those caught in the middle of that… So basicallly Kabuto will have to instruct his version of Nagato to go fight on some remote island and hope he comes back…

  53. “not a jutsu on earth he could not do”: 1. Jiraiya said that he quickly mastered the basics and that he learned quickly but that was all, jutsu take time to learn and master, even the Renningan doesn’t change this.

    “two will only increase its power”: in the same spot yes, but the same force of gravity at a different point would cancel it out because gravity is a vector force.

  54. @Rinnegan jutsu discussion, the Rinnegan gives Nagato every chakra element, so in theory, he COULD master every jutsu out there, Chidori, Rasengan, Kirin etc…..

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