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Strongest Ninja- Part1!

Post Author: Kisuzachi

This post is largely just for fun, but also for the fact that many people think that certain characters are the strongest, when in fact, they aren’t. In this post, only characters that have been in battles, displaying their attacks, are judged.

Okay, let’s start with the Hokages. The stats of the Fourth, First and Second Hokage were never revealed, but they are in this post because they actually had a battle in the manga.

The First Hokage (Hashirama Senju) defeated Madara Uchiha and was considered one of the most powerful ninja of HIS time. He was powerful as its said that he created Konoha with only one jutsu, could control the Biju and was the leader of one of the most powerful clans. However, in his battle against Sarutobi, he didn’t “shine” as he did in his time. He may have been strong in his time, but compared to the ninja today, he would probably be a high level Jonin. In fact, the only reason he and Madara were so feared must have been from the fact that they could control Biju. Consider Dr.Frankenstein, he was feared because he could control Frankenstein’s Monster, and not because HE was strong.

I however was impressed by the Second Hokage (Tobirama Senju). Zabuza used the Water Dragon Jutsu, but had to use 42 Hand Signs AND be near a large source of water, while Tobirama used one Hand Sign and was not near a large source of water, but was still able to create the jutsu. In his battle against Sarutobi, he truly “shined”. My guess is, since he couldn’t control Biju, he actually HAD to be strong to lead a Village in those troubled time 80+ years ago.

In the first Databook, the stats of Sarutobi were released (after he died), and they are impressive, even by Naruto Part 2 standards. His stats are; Ninjutsu: 5, Genjutsu: 5, Intelligence: 5, Taijutsu: 5, Strength: 3, Stamina: 3, Speed: 3, Sealing: 5, which gives him a total of 34 points. While the stats are important, they can’t really decide who would win, but it does tell who has the advantage. But let’s look at his achievements. Sarutobi was able to fight Orochimaru even though he had become a old. He then fought the First and Second Hokages, and gave them several fatal blows, but had to ultimately seal them, and he still had enough power to seal Orochimaru’s arms. After his “victory” (?) over Orochimaru, Enma said compared to his younger days, his performance here was pathetic. That leaves one to wonder just how strong this guy was back in the day.

Well, there isn’t much to say about the Fourth Hokage (Minato Namikaze). We all know what he could do, he took out an entire army of Iwa-nins on his own, sealed the Kyubi, was trained by Jiraiya, created the Rasengan and the Flying Thunder God. We all know HE was strong, but let’s see what Kishimoto thought in his Shonen Jump interview in 2008.


Well since I did the other Hokages, I should do Tsunade’s too. In the latest databook, revealed last year, Tsunade’s stats were ; Ninjutsu: 5, Taijutsu: 5, Genjutsu: 3.5, Intelligence: 5, Strength: 5, Speed: 3.5, Stamina: 4, Sealing: 4. I think her stats are accurate. We all know what Tsunade can do, so there’s no need for me to chronicle her achievements.

Next time, it’s gonna be Akatsuki guys and the remaining Sanin. Until then, comments please, let’s share our thoughts. Personally, I think Minato is the strongest Hokage, and that Hashirama is overrated.


86 Responses

  1. nice post kisu. i never saw tsunade performing a genjutsu!!
    not in the anime atleast!

  2. could u brief abt tsunade doing any sealing ever!!

  3. thx for the wonderful clip of kishi interview!!!

    to my surprise,, minato have been surpassed by several shinobies.
    i am dying to know who r the hot shots!

    kisame really is a interesting guy, stil want to have itachi revive some how!
    as per the interview looks like naruto gonna have next season and madara probabaly is not the last of the enemy!

  4. @ manisuchiha, she used a genjutsu in a filler arc (against really stupid henchmen of Mizuki) and according to another (the 1 that includes the 3 tail), she actually invented a sealing jutsu that was meant to b used on a Bijuu (but it failed; ppl who tried using it were Sakura, Hinata, Ino and Shizune [it takes 4 ppl])

  5. @jpua- i see, so she’ basicaly an inventor of genjutsu not a caster!
    do u think one who can’t cast ones own genjutsu could be called a genjutsu user?
    (mizuki) struks me somewhere, kinda heard him!
    would u brief it!!

  6. @jpua– now i rem that tsunade actually had a seal supressing her chakra on her forehead!!!
    my bad didn’t got it frst, yes she could be called in for sealing jutsus!!

  7. Kisu. Four things
    1. You should have done a poll on which one people think is strongest within the blog

    2. Are you going to do it bu groups? Ex. Akatsuki, current Kages, current generation? If so you should then take the strongest from each and put them together ex. In my opinion: Hirashima, Madara, Tsuchikage, Naruto and as special mention Pein and Sasuke.

    3. You weren’t really clear about which one you thought was strongest of the kages

    4. I think Bijju control should count towards Hirashima’s power, because it’s like Kiba using Akamaru in battle, it’s a tool he used in battle, and he had to use a jutsu to control the tailed beasts.

  8. I consider MInato as the strongest ninja. b/c not just he can summon DEATH itself, but he able to use the 4 image seal it allows the Kyuubi’s light (as opposed to dark) chakra to be siphoned for use by Naruto. and also b/c he earned the yellow flash of konoha and title b/c of his incridible speed. ALso his genius

  9. @kisu
    if u guys have seen the kishi interview i would like to discuss s’thing!!!
    kishi’s ans to the madara being the ultimate villian, it was kind of tricky.
    the way kishi sasid it seems madara isn’t the main enemy, may be their’s more to it,
    wht u say??if not madara then who?

  10. @nasty eyes, Kishi said himself that Minato is not the strongest and that there r living ppl who surpass him
    @ manis, maybe either Sasuke or Kabuto, since those r the only major villains left. or maybe it’ll b some1 totally new

  11. @Mart, I could have done that, but I didn’t want to influence the people reading it. I want to get everyone’s thougths here. AND I’m gonna be doing it by groups to answer your question 8)

  12. Put up a poll the Kisu. I’m interested to see who people think is the strongest. And I’m curious who you think is the strongest.

    JPUA: Kishi also said in that interview that Minato was the strongest among the dead. Does that count the sage o six?

  13. @ mart’s “Kishi also said in that interview that Minato was the strongest among the dead. Does that count the sage o six?”, uhhhmmmm, ahh, i have no idea? maybe it was an interview from b4 the story of the Juubi and he didn’t want to give away spoilers? or, maybe he meant strongest of Konoha ninjas? i don’t know, but i’m sure the Sage could kick Minato’s ass.

  14. @smart..i dont think sage is count..b/c we all know his a legendary shinobi who was said to be the forefather of all modern day ninjutsu. beside that, Minato was the strongest ninja among the dead. and Many state that no one can ever match in power or intelligence to the Yondaime. Not only is he able to execute jutsu, he was able to create new ones based on his current knowledge.

  15. good blog but you were a bit harsh on the first hokage. i’m sure he’d be considered strong even now. he beat madara who is considered one of the strongest shinobi. he had wood release which was pretty strong. and he could control bijuu. saying that he was easily defeated by the third is wrong as that was just a corpse.

  16. @Mart, this interview happened early last year, before the Sage of Six Paths. Kishi probably didn’t want to reveal any spoilers, well he did give a lot of vague spoilers though.

    @Danny, http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/119/15/ and http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/119/16/ they have all the abilities of the First and Second, even though they have none of the emotions.

  17. but as stated in earlier discussions about that fight. they were being controled by orochimaru who seemed to be just toying with sarutobi. plus people have said that they doubted the first would be hit by the exploding tag so easily. and i concur.

  18. @nastyeyes, “I consider MInato as the strongest ninja. b/c not just he can summon DEATH itself, but he able to use the 4 image seal it allows the Kyuubi’s light (as opposed to dark) chakra to be siphoned for use by Naruto”

    this can’t be true, i f in the case of dead people, sage o siz would be the most powerful, reasons–
    1 he controlled every element and was creater of every jutsu.
    2 had the strongest doujutsu.
    3 as far as sealing is concerned he was shown to have sealed jubi(10 tail), that’s a thing which will require far more powerful chakra suppression than kyubi!.
    4minato summoning death(its a sealing jutsu, pein would be much higher in position coz he can also revivie people frm dead, and pein’s power is actually belong to sage!)

  19. @jpua,dude i don’t think kishi will go that far to make sasuke be pure evil, the plot will end up like oro vs jiriya(repeat of the stroy line will ruin the fun).that would suck!

    kabuto being the ultimate evil,
    4 eyes isn’t strong enough to be anything.
    wht abt danzo????
    and zetsu??? guy have the potential but still he is undershadow!

  20. I agree the Sage of 6 is the strongest among the dead..Naruto’s gonna be the strongest when he becomes a Hokage or after this manga is completed…just a theory ^_^

  21. Nice post…Good and accurate views, I suppose. If you mess up the Akatsuki, I will seriously scorn you! >_> <_<

  22. I think the Akatsuki strength wise goes:

    1. Madara
    2. Pein
    3. Itachi
    4. Kisame
    5. Kakuzu
    6. Hidan
    7. Sasori
    8. Deidara

    Oro. Would be between Kisame and Kakuzu and jariya would be somewhere above Kakuzu and under Pein

  23. @mart,
    there’s s’thing wrong in the list, don’t u think sasori
    and deidara should be above hidan!!
    hidan is mush slower and lack abilites in ninjutsu
    and genjutsu!
    whereas sasori is real trouble for person who lack
    knowlege on pupeteers!
    he’s and immortal in his own way, being his own
    body a puppet there’s is no blood in his body
    (except heart) for hidan to take!

    and being a long range and a high scale of destruction power deidara too outcast hidan!

  24. @mart, dude do u realy believe oro to be stronger than
    oro is stronger than sasori?

  25. @mart,sry for the repeat of words!

  26. bollocks deidara is the weakest. he’d dick all over hidan kakuza and sasori. u forgot konan as well.

  27. My reasoning:

    “oro is stronger than sasori?” yeah, because of things like resurrction summoning and his versatility, yes.

    I’ll give you Hidan being beaten by Sasori, but I think he would beat Deidara. Deidara would have no chance against Sasori or Kakuzu either.

    Kohnan I put on equal terms with Deidara, they are both only Jounin level, they lack immortality/super powerfull jutsu the rest of Akatsuki have.

    These are just my opinions though

  28. Isn’t it clear that The Sage of the Six Paths is the strongest in the naruverse, and Pein is second? I’m not gathering how some would beleive Pein would lose to Madara. It’s like Madara’s undefeated…

  29. Sirus Prime, go look at the chap. Discusion but to sumerize the arguements there:

    pro madara: Madara is the REAL leader of Akatsuki, Pein can’t kill Madara, madara could kill Pein in any number of ways, Madara knew Pein’s secret, Madara is smarter than Pein

    pro-pein (massochists): Pein has the Renningan and large chakra reserves, this entiles him to a win. Pein was the Akatsuki fgure head, this entiles him to a win. Madara MIGHT have some unshown weakness we have yet to see meaning he would lose. The Renningan MIGHT have some unshown super (as compared to the rest of his abilities) power

    As you can see I’m pro madara, but if I am wrong in any of these points correct me on the chap. Discusion where we’re talking about it.

  30. As far as I see it, all Akatsuki members are equal. Pain is the only one that’s actually stronger than the rest. My list would be:

    1. Pain
    2. Itachi, Sasori, Hidan, Kakuzu, Konan, Deidara, Zetsu
    3. Madara (shadow of former self)

    Every Akatsuki member is strong in their own right. And Deidara has 2 super powerful jutsu. His C4 created a giant copy of himself that detonates everything on a cellular level, his C3 was going to destroy the ENTIRE Sunagakure and his C0 (when he blew himself up) was powerful enough to be seen from miles, as well as kill a summon of Manda’s level.

  31. Kisu. I kind of guessed you would put Madara below Pein, which due to his shear destructive power some case could be made (even though Madara would win in a fight) but the rest of them WTF???

    Itachi (probably the best not counting them) was clearly weaker than Madara because he wouldn’t have been all super spy otherwise. Also, even as a “shadow of his former self” he anihilated the uchiha clan. As with the Pein arguement, I fail to see 1. How any of them could come close to beating Madara in a fight and 2. Why they would follow someone weaker. And while you can say “Madara MIGHT be weak” or “Madara MIGHT not be the end villan” As of right now he IS strong and he IS the End villan

  32. @Mart, dude, I cant guess his abilities. Until he’s in an actual fight, and shows some actual destructive power, and ACTUALLY beats someone, then I’ll put his rank up, but until then, that’s where he belongs.
    “Why they would follow someone weaker.”- that’s why Pain was the leader (or rather the face) of Akatuski, so they would follow. The reason i think Zetsu follows him is because he’s loyal. As for Kisame, I think its because he has nothing better to do. Kisame isn’t exactly the traditional bad guy……

  33. @ kisu, “As for Kisame, I think its because he has nothing better to do”, lol, that was rich. kinda connects Suigestu to Kisame even more when u think about it, that’s pretty much the same reason he’s working for Sasuke, boredom

  34. “some actual destructive power” With the actual power he has shown he could beat anyone. He has shown four offensive techniques and two deffensive as well as some minnor skills:

    Digging technique (mole something or other) used to plant traps like bombs (as shown in the Deidara fight

    Super Strength: (As seen when he stopped Suigetsu’s sword)

    Super Speed: As remarked by Deidara (not sure if this was just him using teleportation cleverly though)

    Offensive Teleportation: He can use his teleportation to put him wherever he needs to be to launch his attacks. Also a POSSIBILITY is partial-teleportation attacks (as he HAS been shown to do partial teleportation, but hasn’t used it offensively)


    Time/Space Teleportation and Intangibility: Basically he can’t be touched by any attack. Effectively making him Immortal

    Minnor Skills: Sharingan (and all of it’s advantages), Amatseru supresion, and stated Tsukyoumi (he said he could hasn’t done it though)

    These simple skills allow him to beat any opponent with the use of basic tools like Kunai or Explosive tags (and because some people might argue he hasn’t been shown using these, his own fists). Ex. Teleports next to someone, stabs them (in the case of fists substitute the word punch for stab), teleports away, similar to Minato’s Flying Thunder God, but without the use of tags, or Teleport next to someone, plant explosive tag, run away, detonate. Because of his high deffensive skills, victory against Madara imposible, meaning without any special destructive attacks he is stronger than any other ninja.

  35. @ kisu and mart, mart’s most recent post makes me think he’s right. altho, it would probably take more than stabbing to kill the dude who can flatten something as large as Konoha in 1.2 seconds

  36. Okay, so Madara pulls things into his eye (Sasuke and Karin). That wouldn’t be too smart against a guy that can rip your soul out. And if the body gets sent to the Andromeda Galaxy, Pain could always just re-summon it. I’m just not gonna give Madara any cred until I SEE him do the things you GUESSED he’d be smart enough to do.

    @Jpua, just do what I do. Don’t try to understand Kirigakure ninja, just accept they’re cool psychos and leave it at that. But the one that wrote the book on being psychotic is easily Raiga lol

  37. As for the second requirement “and ACTUALLY beats someone” He did beat Sasuke, Sasuke wanted to go destroy Kohana, he said “do what I want or die” Sasuke attacked him, realised he had no chance at victory, and submited. Actual victory, because Sasuke isn’t a compleat idiot. He also beat Team Naruto in a way because his goal was to stall them and he accomplished it.

    @JPUA: say it fails, just rinse wash and repeat, because when it comes down to it, Nagato is flesh and blood the same as anyone else. There was some russian dictator (can’t remember the name) who was shot twice, hanged, drowned and stabbed before he died. (not in order, drowning was last)

  38. “That wouldn’t be too smart against a guy that can rip your soul out.” Pein has to make contact first (all his victims made contact with the statue or were held captive by Pein) something he can’t possibly do against Madara.

    “And if the body gets sent to the Andromeda Galaxy, Pain could always just re-summon it.” There are two flaws 1. What if Nagato himself is teleported? that would put him out of range of his bodies, and leave him helpless 2. What if they die from going wherever their sent, like say the middle of a volcano or deep undersea. (I will give you the “until I SEE him do the things you GUESSED” on the volcano arguement)

    But you attack the complex answers, and give no possible diffence against the simple “teleport and stab” method. Explain how Pein defeats that? he can’t.

  39. “What if Nagato himself is teleported?” Nagato is the Outer PAth and possesses the abilities of all the realms, so he could teleport himself to Earth via reverse summoning.

    “teleport and stab”- well i could say what would happened if Pain gave Madara food and he choked and died? Simple questions are the hardest to answer dude. But as far as stabbing goes, Nagato could Shinra Tensei the object before it hits him

  40. “so he could teleport himself to Earth via reverse summoning.” No, at most all he could do is summon the Pein bodies to him, and have them AND him be lost in the Andromeda Galaxy

    “Nagato could Shinra Tensei the object before it hits him” Again, rinse and repeat, he blocks the first stab with Shina Tensei, then Madara does the same thing while Pein is left open for five seconds.

  41. So if Madara is so powerful, how did he lose to The First Hokage? I have my ideas, one being he and the Sharingan are way overrated, but it seems that the pro Madara segment are completely forgettin that Madara, at full power lost a battle, that left him, it would seem worst than dead, and his only hope of salvagin his prior glory is to come up with this ridiculously unobtainable plan…
    Pein beats Madara easily….

  42. I read posts by Mart and others, and all of Madara’s powers confirmed or speculated that are being listed still don’t explain how the almight Madara lost to The First Hokage… It’s not like he didn’t have those powers then. They were at their pinnacle, and he, for lack of a better term, got his ass beat… And its logical to assume that a ninja of Peins caliber, who possesses the Rinnegan, which grants him more power that what the Sharingan would beat Madara also… And one more thing… Didn’t the Raikage punch through Susanoo… I know he lost and arm, but didn’t he still punch through it? So Susanoo isn’t it cracked all up to be…

  43. “It’s not like he didn’t have those powers then.” Actually I think that’s exactly what it was. Madara never used the teleportation techniques until after his battle with Hirashima. Which leads to a few posibilities 1. Hirashima had some unseen special ability which happened to be Madara’s one weakness (which Pein lacks and thus still loses) 2. Madara faked his death ( he did survive after all and was planning to leave kohana anyway, by taking a false dive, he avoided the hassel of fighting off more pursuers) 3. Despite being a “shell of his former self” he actually learned something in his 80+ years of life, similar to how cripples learn things to compensate for their handicap. (I don’t think it’s similarity to FTG and the fact Madara faught Minato are coincidental)

    as far as “a ninja of Pein’s caliber” goes, again, I ask how Pein could survive the “teleport and stab” method I outlined above? You can say Pein is a great or “high caliber” ninja, and he is, but Madara is simply a better one.

  44. the russian guy you where thinking of is called Rasputin. people need to get over pain he’s dead. madara isnt so therefore he’s better coz he’s alive.

  45. @ Mart1… From my understanding of the Naruverse, and by no means am I the subject matter expert, we all kno Madara lost to Hirashima fair and square… Madara more than said his lack of power and consequent plan to regain it was caused by the blow Hirashima inflicted upon him… That fact was stated a few chapters ago when Madara declared war on everybody… So it’s logical to assess that Hirashima knew a weakness of the Sharingan that we don’t. Next point… It is also stated that the Rinnegan is more powerful than the Sharingan… And I’m just speculating here, but since only two confirmed individuals had the Rinnegan, it’s much more powerful that the very, nowadays, common Sharingan… You have implants floating around, and a certain ninja advancing to MS apparently without the accepted method of killing his best friend… My point is this, There seems to be nothing special about the Sharingan other Madara’s ability to apparently not die and transport any and everywhere… And by the way, that’s a great ability to have, but not enought to beat Pein… I swear I read somewhere that Madara’s chakra reserves were small, and the blue print for beating Pein or at least lasting long enough to convince him to change his life philosophy is having a large chakra reserve, something akin to that granted to you by the Kyuubi… So besides having a very larger chakra reserve Pein can manipulate all 6 elements, something only he and the Sage could do… Which also make it logical to think that any technique associated with the 6th element would be able to counter the teleport and stab method… Or assuming Pein would battle Madara as The Sixths Paths of Pein, Madara would be hard pressed to sneak up on Madara, teleportation or not, with Pein’s security camera vision…. And by no means are the Six Paths of Pein unbeatable, Naruto did it, but as long as Nagato is around he could just bring all back to life again, rinse and repeat, and start all over… So then it becomes a battle of attrition, and Madara says uncle first…. For the second time…

  46. @ Danny… Are serious? Pein’s dead so Madara’s better… Um Naruto’s still relevant because Pein brought the village of Konaha back to life after obliterating it relatively easily… Madara had to send the Nine Tailed Fox, and we all know how that went… So when it came to destroying Konaha Pein succeeded and Madara didn’t… So dead or not Pein’s better…

  47. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/467/06/

    “we all kno Madara lost to Hirashima fair and square…” We don’t know anything of what happened, except that Madara was seriously injured. Unless I happen to miss the chapter in which it showed this fight. So While “Hirashima knew” that doesn’t explain how Pein would.

    “Madara’s chakra reserves were small,” BEFORE his battle with hirashima it was said he had a large amount of extreamly sinister chakra, nowhere does it say he has small chakras, though he did admit to being of the older brother type ninja that have as a general rule than the younger, but this just means he lacks the near infinate chakra levels some people have, not that his are small. It also never said that Hirashima’s wounds affected his chakra supply.

    “any technique associated with the 6th element would be able to counter the teleport and stab method…” Again, what technique? None of Pein’s techniques could affect Madara, simply because someone has the ability to use an element doesn’t mean they know how. Ex. Nauto didn’t use wind chakra till the second part. So show me which technique of this sixth element Pein used that Madara couldn’t counter. This based on their shown abilities not speculated ones.

    “Pein’s security camera vision” Even if the Pein bodies do see him when he is attacking, they can’t do anything to attack him that won’t pass right through. Also you are forgetting his super speed, he was quick enough to dodge the Raikage in thunder mode, he could probably “teleport and stab” seven times before Nagato noticed he was dead, because Madara’s teleportation is instantaneous as he showed when getting from Team Naruto to Sasuke.

    Not that the this means anything, but…
    As far as destroying the village goes, Madara did take out one of the strongest clans (uchiha) managed to kill lots of shinobi (Pein failed in this because he later revived them, meaning they weren’t dead) and took out the strongest Hokage the village has ever had (Pein took out the weakest)

    and the only things that have been said about the Renningan being the “best” are that it’s the rarest (rare is not anything to do with battlel, ex. Guns aren’t rarer than knives but in a death match I’d rather have the gun.) and that it could read the most of the Sage o six’s writting (makes sense, I can read my notes better than someone else can) but besides that, it comes down to who would actually win in a fight, and that is the “teleport and stab”

  48. First point… I didn’t say, or at least didn’t mean to say that Madara’s chakra reserve was affected by Hirashima… I am saying he lossed to him… That’s all…
    Second point… Pein annahilated a whole village in one shot causing the deaths of nearly the whole village. For example, Kakashi was in pergatory, speaking to his dad, Choji’s father was dead as wood. And Pa Toad was a complete gonner. And in one swift swoop Pein revived them all.
    Third point… It has been confirmed by several sources that Madara sent the Kyuubi to destroy the Leaf Village. We all know that plan didn’t work. He did however send Pein to capture Naruto and in the process a whole village gets wiped out. So if Madara was so great why didn’t he just send Pein the first time?
    Fourth Point… Pein possesses six elements plus an ungodly amount of summonings. We can speculate Madara posesseses fire, maybe electricity, a space/time technique and maybe a summoning or two. So it’s safe to assume that Pein’s toolbox is much greater than Madara. For example, I envision Madara using fire, Pein counters with more fire, earth, and wind. To use your analogy The Sharingan is the knife i.e utility knife and The Rinnegan is the gun i.e .50 caliber rifle with rail system and various barrel specs…
    And as a counter to your beloved teleport and stab method I’ve summized that barriers would be the solution… I believe Pein would have no problem with raising a barrier that once Madara teleported into would leave him incapicitated… And two technique we kno Pein had that could possibly play off each other is his gravity ball jutsu and his soul sucking jutsu… Don’t tell me you forgot about him and how that member of the squad pulled out Shizune’s soul… Brutal I know… So it works like this… Pein erects a barrier, Madara teleports into its vicinity and is immobilized and the soul sucking Pein pulls out Madara’s soul… And don’t say Pein could capture madara in some sort of container if the Sage of the Six Paths could seal away the Ten Tailed monstrocity Madara wants to resurrect… It would seem a simple task…

  49. @Sirus: “I’ve summized that barriers would be the solution… I believe Pein would have no problem with raising a barrier that once Madara teleported into would leave him incapicitated” 1. Physical Barriers mean nothing to Madara because of his space/time teleportion, he doesn’t have to touch/pass through/be effected by the barriers 2. Pein has no such technique, this is based on their Shown abilities. If I were to speculate and give Madara powers as you are giving Pein, I could give him all of Akatsuki’s techniques because he has a sharingan and can use Zetsu to “record” all of their fights.

    As for “gravity ball jutsu and his soul sucking jutsu” I explained above how both of these fail to work, they both rely on contact, and since Pein can’t touch Madara they both fail.

    As far as who knows the most jutsu and the toolbox analogy, if you consider that Madara has a sharingan, has lived for 100 years, and been a kage, he has had opportunity to learn a vast array of jutsu. My gun analogy is Pein is a rocket launcher and Madara is a sniper inside of a super fortified bunker. Pein’s power is great, but he can’t hit Madara so Madara could take him out at his leisure.

  50. @Sirus/Kisu.: Up until now we have been debating Madara’s SHOWN abilities. I think I’ve pretty much won that battle. So for fun, if I were to SPECULATE about Madara’s abilities, I think “We can speculate Madara posesseses fire, maybe electricity, a space/time technique and maybe a summoning or two.” is a poor assesment. Here is what I think he would know how to do: Any Akatsuki technique he found usefull (as explained above), Fire/Wind/Earth/Water element techniques (fire and wind are the standard uchiha elements, he has been shown using earth, and he WAS the Mizukage) (Remember, Kakashi said the only reason people don’t normally learn multiple elements is because they lack the time to compleate the training), Sharingan jutsu, his teleportation, other random jutsu he copied while in the leaf/mist villages. These are what I think he knows how to do, though he might lack chakra/desire to do them.

  51. @Mart, “No, at most all he could do is summon the Pein bodies to him”- he could reverse summon himself. Reverse summoning sends something to a place, instead of taking something from that place, as long as there is something connecting the thing being sent at that place. Example, Naruto being reverse summoned to Myobokuzan because he has a connection to the toads, via the Toad Contract. So Nagato could reverse summon himself to where the other bodies are, as they are linked to him. Remember when Animal Realm summoned the other bodies into Konoha? Nagato could also do that and make Animal Realm SUMMON him back.

    Now its time for my secret weapon…….FACTS! Where exactly in the manga, or anime, or databook or interview, did it say Tobi can transport non-living things? He’s never even attempted to transport weapons, if he could it would stand to reason that he would have just teleported a bunch of kunais and explosive tags at Naruto’s team when they first met. Weapons aren’t alive, and so far, the only things he’s transported are himself, Karin and Sasuke.

    As for transporting Nagato into a volcano, he’s never teleported anyone stronger than himself before. He teleported Sasuke because he was in a weakened state, and teleported Karin because she’s……well she’s Karin (new definition of weak). If he could teleport strong people, he would have sent Kakashi’s team into the Arctic Ocean. ANd since he wanted the Kages, he could have just teleported them into a dungeon. But he said he was hoping that Sasugay could weaken them so he could capture them, which MAY mean my hypothesis is correct and he can only teleport people weaker than himself. And considering that he’s now only a shadow of his former self, I think at best he could only teleport average Chunins and not someone like Nagato, who is easily a Kage level ninja.

  52. 1. Rinnegan is indeed better than Sharingan. It was said (in Neji-Hinata battle) that Sharingan was born by Byakugan, and Sasuke, compared to Neji, “won’t be a match for him”. So I think that Rinnegan was born first, then Byakugan and then Sharingan.

    However, Sharingan has the ability to develop further and form Mangekyo Sharingan, Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, Susanoo and God knows what else! But Rinnegan, on the other hand, can even revive dead.

    Well, my point is that if Madara was SO strong, he could bring the “Moon’s Eye Plan” into effect without Pein’s help. Also, he was always talking to him with respect and carefully, maybe because he was afraid of his anger (and of course to make him his pawn).

    So Madara in his current state won’t stand against Pein, he even admits his forcelessness in 467 and he must use the seven Bijuu to have even a chance of victory (but, again, he may just pretended so). He also uses Sasuke, filling him up with lies and anger and thus making him a pawn too. He is really cagey and secretive about everything, I think that we hadn’t seen anything of him yet.

    2. I really think that Minato was way stronger than anyone alse among the dead shinnobi. Considering his youth and his early death, if he was still alive, he would probably be the strongest of the alive shinnobi, too, maybe except from Pein or Madara. Just remember that he had the intention to mix his natural element with his Rasengan, but suddenly the Kyubi arrived and… Naruto is now an orpan! So, if he was alive, he would came up with much more jutsus that no one can ever imagine and maybe find a way to win against Madara.

    This is just my belief, though, we can’t predict anything right now that Madara is on the move. I even feel that Madara hides other secrets and plans, too, and not only his force. We must wait further and than judge which one, Pein or Madara, is the stronger.

  53. “make Animal Realm SUMMON him back” 1. He is well out of range to make animal realm do anything because he needs to be able to transmit his chakra 2. This IS based on his SHOWN abilities, we don’t even know if he could reverse summon himself to Animal Realm if he was in range

    ” Weapons aren’t alive” neither are his clothes or Sasuke’s sword but he managed to teleport those. Though I did account for this possibility by saying he could just use his fists to beat Nagato to death if stabbing wasn’t possible.

    “he could have just teleported them into a dungeon.” Madara said he wanted to take them Hostage, there are many interpretations to this, for example he could have wanted them weak to use a brainwashing technique on them. And while you CAN hypothesize a weakness in Madara’s abilities, that weakness has not been SHOWN ex. Trying and failing to teleport someone.

  54. @Mart, we don’t know the range of Nagato’s Six Paths. But I gave two ways he could return to the battlefield if needed.
    And like i said before, we’ve never seen him teleport weapons, and I never saw him teleport Sasuke’s sword. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/467/07/

  55. Oh I thought there was a sword in Sasuke’s hand but again, Madara can still beat Nagato to death.

    As far as “two ways he could return” He can’t reverse summon himself because he hasn’t SHOWN that technique AND he may not even be able to summon the bodies, ex. Asura (the puppet-like one) Pein had missles he could fire but Nagato lacked the body modifications to do this. In a similar manner he isn’t guarenteed the ability to summon Pein bodies let alone reverse summon them. He also doesn’t neccesarily have the ability to summon himself with Animal Realm EVEN if he could reach them. And while we don’t know the exact range of Pein’s chakra transmitters, it is limited or else he would stay in Amegakure instead of risking his body by going close to his target. It’s limitations are also shown by his location relative to the bodies and his location for transmition as well as when he moved GRP closer in order to execute chibaku tensei.

  56. okay, my opinion, neither Madara nor Nagato showed their full strength, but when Madara was @ full strength, he lost to Hashirama, who was far from being the levels of Hiruzen or Minato. Nagato can flatten a village then revive it and still have enuf chakra to create Luna’s* Mini-Me. i think he has some sorta barriar jutsu that may prevent or possibly dely Madara’s teleportation. and Madara obviously has no power over the Kage’s, all of whom could get pwned by Nagato. bottom line, while it can’t b confirmed who would win, things r really looking up for Nagato. Madara’s teleportation could only get him so far, especially since Nagato, having all 5 known elements and a 6th unknown, could probably use the earth jutsu Kakuzu used to protect him from Choji’s attack (or somthing similar), so i think a kunai would b useless. Madara might know a lightning jutsu to counter it, but that would take time to prepare, time that Nagato’s Human realm (who has incredible speed himself) could attack w/ soul stealing. and Madara might teleport out of it, but then he won’t b able to finish his jutsu. so it’ll come down to who can outlast the other, the dude who, in his prime, couldn’t take down a tree-hugger, or the dude who can flatten a village, knock back 3 100-meter monsters, create a mini-moon, and revive like, one hundred+ ppl in less than half an hour real-time, and he still did alot of other really powerful, crazy stuff inbetween those things.
    *Luna is the official scientific name of the moon orbiting Earth that is visible. there r like 6 astroids orbiting Earth that also count as “moons” but r too small to c

  57. I think Jpua just ended this lol. If the first post gets such a stirring debate and even a new face (Sirius Prime), then I can’t wait for Part 2 lol.

  58. @JPUA “could probably use the earth jutsu” I went through the trouble of doing two things for a reason 1st. I went through the trouble of complying with Kisu.s “Shown abilities” rules to show how Madara’s SHOWN abilities could beat Pein’s SHOWN abilities. 2nd. I went through the trouble of showing the abilities Madara MIGHT know because people kept bringing up the things Pein MIGHT know even after saying that the only thing we could count on was SHOWN abilities.

    Nagato IS granted access to the Earth chakras by the Renningan HOWEVER that just means he has the ability to learn earth ninjutsu not that he has learned any. The same goes for barrier ninjutsu, simply because he has the ability to learn them doesn’t mean he HAS or that he COULD use them. If you say that Nagato could use a barrier ninjutsu to somehow stop madara, I say Madara has an instant death technique or that he has the powers of every shinobi ever and the chakra to use them, and that he simply refrains from using them because then things would be boringly easy. It’s a ridduclous arguement that 1. Pein knows things he hasn’t shown but Madara doesn’t and 2. Madara hasn’t changed at all (for better or worse) since his battle with Hirashima.

  59. @ mart “simply because he has the ability to learn them doesn’t mean he HAS or that he COULD use them” i’m not going out there, he can demolish a village, you’d think he’s learned some defensive move’s too. by your logic, this means Nagato doesn’t have substitution jutsu either. if u want somthing he can do, okay, lety’s say Madara teleports behind Nagato and stabs him, then Nagato could use his chakra transmitters on his back to stab Madara b4 he realizes it, then w/ his chakra disrupted, Human Realm could rip Madara’s soul out. or maybe Nagato could justhave Animal realm hide him inside the Chameleon summon, it turns invisible, and voila, Madara can’t find him, then it’ll just b up to who can outlast whom, which Nagato has much more chakra than Madara. on “Madara hasn’t changed at all (for better or worse)” HE ADMITED THAT HE HAS GOTTEN MUCH WEAKER SINCE THEN!!!!!!!!!!

  60. well, technically, Madara admited to being a shadow of his former self, but that means the same thing

  61. “Nagato could use his chakra transmitters on his back to stab Madara” He can’t stab Madara if he is intangible. Kakashi SUSPECTED that Madara has to be solid to attack but it wasn’t confirmed.

    “Nagato could justhave Animal ” another one of Madara’s minor skills that have been shown is the ability to track people anywhere. So this would fail, he would just teleport inside the chameleon and stab Pein.

    “you’d think” I would but again, I’m just playing by Kisu.’s rules, so as far as I know he can’t do a substitution.

    And as far as “well, technically” I think being weaker than before and being a “shadow of his former self” are two different thinks look at the strongst ninja in the world they have the title Hokage, Raikage, Tsuchikage, Mizukage, and Kazekage (noticed the Kage part yet?). I think Madara has gotten stronger since lossing to Hirashima. He may/may not have lost some of his powers, but in return gained other compensatory ones. Ninja aren’t supposed to have huge battles, they are supposed to be STEALTHY!!! I think when Madara says “I am a shadow of my former self” or when he feeds that line to Itachi (who said it originally) that it is Kishimoto being EXTREAMLY ironic. Until it say “this is how I am weak, these are my limits” then Madara can do what he has been shown to do.

  62. @Mart, well those jutsu are taught to Academy students and are a requirement for graduation. So the mere fact that Nagato Konan and Yahiko became full fledged Amegakure ninja means they all know Substitution Jutsu…..

  63. Well gentlemen it seems this argument could go on for days… So in preparation for part 2 lets just agree to disagree… I feel both may have a technique that if executed properly could end the other. I just think that, figuratively speaking, Pein’s tool box is far greater than Madara’s… I mean to piggy back Mart1 concept of shown or displayed powers… Pein has jus shown more, minus what we know he could do, like use six freakin elements, so we can speculate (such a dirty word) that Pein could use all six in a variety of ways. So think about this… One of the more impressive abilities of the Sharingan is that it can copy any technique… But that has its limitations right? i.e. users chakra level and skill level… Well Pein doesnt have to copy a single elemental attack… He could just learn it, and if you learn it you can presumably alter it, so, beaten a dead horse here Pein just brings more to the fight…. Can’t wait for Part 2…

  64. Last thing… Hirashima is the strongest of the Kage’s… Facts: Herculean strenght, extremely rare elemental ability…. And he could control all 9 bijuu, and at once… I mean he did divide up amongs the villages… Reflect on that for a minute. He divided up the Tailed beasts… It was said, in Madara’s own words, Hirashima controlled the tailed beast like pest… So imagine pissing Hirashima off and he jus sics the six tails on you… or maybe he chases you off with both the six and seven tailed beast… All along keeping the ol’ Kyuubi in his back pocket… Seriously…. No wonder Madara lost… Then you have to conclude That he was a beast against genjutsu considering thats a favorite among Sharingan users, and he probably just like the Raikage did, punched right through Susanoo, and probably found a defense against Ameratsu. Next would be Minato… He invented in my opionion the most brutal technique in Naruto… He could summon Death… His amazin speed has been well documented. The dude as a Jonin had a flee from on sight order against him from other villages, enough said… I think the coolest looking Hokage has to go to The Second Hokage but he’s fourth on my list, Sarutobi-sensai is actually third, but he had the absolutely coolest summon, The Second Hokage would be fourth, and Tsuanade same Fifth… I know I evaluated on my top two mostly, but all of their powers have been well documented. I think I’m gonna catch flaque for my first pick, so I’m jus defendin it….

  65. “Well Pein doesnt have to copy” Copying = Learning instantly, Madara doesn’t HAVE to copy it’s and ADVANTAGE and the Sharingan users aren’t limited to using just the technique the copied Ex. Sasuke changed Chidori into another form. I think Pein has an advantage if you SPECULATE about their powers in his favor (which is where the Manga points) but based on SHOWN abilities Madara has the edge because his “weakness” hasn’t been SHOWN, and by the time Madara’s weakness IS shown, he will probably gain enough power to compensate.

    As far as “well those jutsu are taught” 1. They are taught in KOHANA not neccesarily Amegakure. There is no guarentee they have a ninja academy in Amegakure, Suna didn’t have one till after the Chunin Exam arc.

    As far as Hirashima goes, he COULD control beasts (a plural) but not neccesarily all nine. Madara had control over the Kyubbi not Horashima. But I still think Bijju control gives him the edge. As far as smashing through Sussano, it’s important to note the difference between Sasuke’s Sussano and Itachi’s, Sasuke’s seems to lack the two things that make sussano great, namely it’s sword/sheild combo.

  66. @Mart, you really think Jiraiya would train them and NOT teach them the most powerful jutsu (Replacement Jutsu)? But, I’m now oveer this debate. I’m getting my facts together to defend Hidan now, in preparation for my next post 8)

  67. “you really think” nope, because it wasn’t SHOWN. If you want to give Pein unshown techniques then you have to give Madara unshown techniques.

    But okay, I’m done too. This was just to protest Madara being at the bottom of the list due to no SHOWN techniques. Why specifically Hidan?

  68. Well most of you think Hidan’s a moron with no jutsus lol. And im gonna give him……….no spoilers lol

  69. okay, @ mart on the “no shown techniques”, as long as it makes sense, then what’s wrong w/ theorizing about them having it? i’m pretty sure Neji never used replacement jutsu, does that mean he doesn’t kno it? c how rediculous u r? this is y i HATE u, your logic is so screwed up, it makes no sense. whoever programmed your hard drive hopefull perfected his techniques on later robots in your line. i also hate how u have no emotions, but that’s unrelated to the topic at hand

  70. well obviously when it comes to physical strength, Tsunade is the strongest! : P

  71. make sure deidara isnt bottom and i’ll be happy.

  72. @JPUA: “as long as it makes sense” That’s what I did originally, then Kisu. said “@Mart, dude, I cant guess his abilities. Until he’s in an actual fight, and shows some actual destructive power, and ACTUALLY beats someone, then I’ll put his rank up, but until then, that’s where he belongs.” so I went through the trouble of finding where “he’s in an actual fight, and shows some actual destructive power” THEN people started to say “Well, Pein might know…” which IS riddiculous completely hypocritical.

    As far as “is y i HATE u, your logic is so screwed up,” I couldn’t care less.

  73. Madara was beaten by 1st so there for shouldnt the 1st be better then Madara, i dont think its down to Madara and Pain, i would think the best would be either the 3rd or the 1st!! Pain.

    Mart1- Pain did summon that big beast that shot all the soul sucking creatures out of his Mouth, so in that respect nagato wouldnt need to touch Madara, well if those soul sucking things could actually touch Madara, maybe madara isnt actually there and he just just projecting and astro form of himself! but that form can physically do stuff!

    Pain seemed to be allot weaker then the current sage of the six paths too me! but i guess pain doesnt have the combined full powers of body and eyes like the sage did! but also if he is a reincarnation then he should have!!

  74. “nagato wouldnt need to touch Madara” Those things had to make contact as well, they had to hit their opponent.

    “Pain seemed to be allot weaker” Pein isn’t a Jinkuri and yeah, the sage was just a beast.

    “Madara was beaten by 1st” I have theory about that that should come out soon.

  75. @Madara vs Pain, this is a dumb debate. I doubt we saw the extent of Nagato’s abilities and I KNOW we haven’t seen the extent of Madara’s abilities (or maybe we have). We’re debating in the dark here.
    @Mart and Jpua, if its any consolation I like both of you 8)

  76. we are indeed yes, it is all speculation in the end unless we know full extent of the abilities!

  77. You can go up to the 15 strongest ppl in Naruto and they all could finish anyone off with one attack, the only thing that defines them is there defence and chakra reserve and special techniques, like naruto probably has the most devistating attacks ever with the rasengan wind shuriken, that attack on contact will wipe out ne foe, but say it want matter against sumone like madara who could teleport instantly, my point is theres no point in talkin about who was the strongest, far as pure strenth goes it goes to the 1st hokage, and tsunade since there senju , but for the most powerful ninja you just really cant go with that, i will say this however i think the only way to beat madara is to have stronger eyes, wether its sasuke who obtains the same power as madara, or if there is another rinnegan user , which i doubt or naruto manages to combine sage with fox power, which really aint a eye thing but his eyes do change lol

  78. I have to say this cause I seen a comment that said the sage of the six path is the strongest dead character, but kishi said in a interview that Minato was the strongest dead ninja, so just thought id bring that up

  79. @billybob- you really cant say that only “doujutsu” will defeat Madara because the 1st hokage Hashirama beat Madara and he has not got an Special eye techniques!
    Also No one can really say how to beat Madara unless he starts fighting and there is more insight in his full set of abilities and flaws but its nice to know peoples thoughts.

  80. I dnt think madara could win in a battle against pein…. maybe before hhis battle with the 1st, and its still a stretch!! i think its safe to say that madara is pritty useless as he is now! i mean after loosing the 9tails to minato, dont u think u would continue an attack after u disposed of the hokage of the village?? he also needed itachis help to anihialate his clan… i mean the only thing he managed to do on his own was loose to the first!…. Even if his so called “teleport stab’ technique was good enough to get in and out of peins defenses, u forget dat a few stabs wont do anything to a corpse! u have to literally disable the receivers in his body! and doing dat would certainly put him at risk of bein attacked!

    furthermore, konahn said pein was unbeatable to madara!!! did madara ubject?? i think pein was more then capable of defeating madara and he knew it himself! dats why he let him be the leader of akatsuki!

  81. i dont think madaras teleport is all dat u think it is…. i mean in the manga wen have u seen him actually instantly teleport??? i think the the teleport tech used by madara and minato are diffrent in alot of ways.,,,

    1. minato needed seals to perform his, which madara doesnt even need a hand sign.

    2.minatos was instant,…. i dnt believe its the same case for madara….

    wen sasuke was gna attack kohnoah, we saw his eye manifest first, and then the rest of his body manifested… which looked like a slower process then minatos,,,, and looked like sumthing u can definatelly anticipate…..

    Minato was able to do dis, which is why they considered him the strongest shinobi ever…if madara could apply the same technique in his fighting style im sure he would have been recodnized for it like minato was hence the name, ‘kohnoas yellow flash’….

  82. @dabeastwithin: I don’t feel like getting into the Madara vs. Pein debate again, but “minatos was instant,…. i dnt believe its the same case for madara….” is incorrect look here: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/467/06/

    that is one example of him teleporting instantly. the mask appearing is just for dramatic effect.

  83. @mart1…. in that link that u showed u saw him teleport himself to dodge an attack! he didnt teleport his actual position! i think for defenses porposous he can teleport his body to an alter dimention! but it appears he has to return to where his body originally was… this is pure speculation but i think i have more proof behind my speculations then urs, cuz u never actually see him teleport to a diffrent position as means to attack!

  84. “he didnt teleport his actual position” okay, how about here? http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/14/ and http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/15/ None of the ninja watching saw Madara teleport in and out, I’d say that’s fairly instant and it’s teleporting his position. There is also his one in an earlier fight but this is proof enough.

  85. I’d say Hashirama would still be pretty elite even by the standards of todays ninja. His abilities and skills are all greater than Yamato, and Yamato is ANBU and high level Jonin! Hashirama would definitely be a powerful ninja by any standards.

  86. Who can say that Hashirama didnt create all the multiple forests around Konoha for a few miles in one go!! imagine if he did!! because that would be one terrifying technique!! I Personally think we only seen a small sample of what the 1st could do when he thought against the 3rd when he was just a soul inside a vessel! a vessel that might have been very limited!!

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