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Naruto Chapter 468 – A New Alliance

naruto-retro1Post Author: Bob

I guess this was an okay chapter, I was expecting more of an explanation from Madara about this war he is declaring, but instead he just ends it there and disappears. I thought that was pretty anti-climactic given last week’s cliffhanger. If I was a villain and my goal was to instil fear in my enemies, I would at least elaborate a little more or at least demonstrate a bit of the power I so boasted about. You don’t just say you’re all uber powerful and l33t and then just run away in the next sentence.
This is another chapter with a lot of talking between the kages but a lot did get accomplished. I’m sure some fans are already squirming in their seats for the next big battle so it’s nice that chapter 468 concludes with Kisame confronting Killerbee. The bad news is, Kishi will be taking a short break so we won’t expect to see the beginning of that fight for at least another two weeks.
With Killerbee’s safety confirmed, the Raikage is a lot more mellow and reasonable. When the idea of the Shinobi Alliance is brought up, instead of smashing something he actually agrees. The question of what to do with Danzo still lingers. Although all the kages agree they don’t trust Danzo in the least, they still want to bring Konoha’s strength into the alliance. Raikage suggests that Danzo would be discredited and probably removed as Hokage if news of what happened at the meeting were to reach Konoha. Gaara agrees to replay this information by meeting Kakashi himself and passing on the news. All the kages seem to have a good deal of trust in Kakashi as a trustworthy shin obi — I don’t know about everyone else but I sense a strong hint of Kakashi as the next Hokage after Danzo gets the boot. Still, I doubt Danzo would let his title go so easily after all he has gone through to be Hokage. I’m getting more and more suspicious of his actions during the kage meeting. This is just my conspiracy theory but I found the revealing of his Sharingan by Ao’s Byakugan just a little too coincidental. Ao is probably the only ninja in his village with an implanted Byakugan, yet he is chosen out of hundreds to accompany the Mizukage and happens to recognize Danzo’s Sharingan because he fought and remembered the chakra signature of Shisui Uchiha whom Danzo took his Sharingan from. Too many pieces are falling together too well and I suspect that Ao is more than who he seems. Perhaps he is actually in collusion with Danzo? How was he able to obtain his Byakugan? Perhaps it was given to him by Danzo in the past to gain his loyalty? Don’t you find it strange that Ao gave chase after Danzo and his guards by himself and we haven’t seen anything about them after?
After the alliance business, the kages debate on whether or not to use Naruto or Killerbee in the upcoming war against Madara and his seven Bijuu. The Tsuchikage wants to use them as weapons on the field, but everyone else want to keep them hidden and protected. I found Mifune’s statement about why Madara came here to negotiate first very observant — if Madara truly believed he has the power to crush a shin obi alliance, he would not have come here in the firs place. But Mifune also adds that his samurai would aid in the alliance too… seeing how they performed in the last few chapters…. No thanks. Although I understand the others’ concerns about keeping Naruto and Killerbee safe, I tend to agree with the Tsuchikage because the alternative of keeping Naruto locked up and safe has never really worked out in the past. Everyone recognizes both Killerbee and Naruto as being reckless and unpredictable based on past experience, so why would they believe those two would simply agree to stay put when everyone else go fight an epic war? It would also be a very boring manga if they did. If anything, they should agree to let Killerbee train Naruto to better control the Kyuubi.
Chojiro’s warnings about Kisame brings no new information about him and instead reinforces what we already know: the guy has a badass sword and he has chakra on par with a Jinchuuriki. Chojiro warns that Kisame should not be under-estimated, though I don’t think anybody in the room would having just had a taste of what Akatsuki members can do a few minutes ago. No, Chijiro’s comment was just a set-up for the battle between Killerbee and Kisame because it’s really Killerbee who is going to underestimate Kisame. I can’t honestly say I know anything about enka singers in Japan, but this new character looks like he was based off some real life enka singer. He seems eccentric as Killerbee himself, but who knows, he controls a giant bear-thing so he could be powerful too. The fight between Kisame and Killerbee could get pretty interesting if he gets involved.
I have some other random points I want to point out but don’t want to write paragraphs on them, so I’ll leave them in point form:
– that look on Temari and Kankuro’s faces on page 7 was kinda creepy
Chojiro’s sword is still imbued with chakra even if he’s not holding it (page 8)
– looks like Madara left Jugo and Suigetsu behind; it sucks to be secondary characters, doesn’t it?
– it took me a while to figure out that girl on page 11 is Kurotsuchi (one of Tsuchikage’s guards); and I’m pretty sure it’s a girl now because guys don’t talk like that in manga.
– is Naruto trying to go Sage mode 24/7? I think to remember a similar guy in an orange suit having the same idea.
– how the heck did Sakura’s group get to Iron country so fast? Weren’t they still in Konoha just last chapter?


156 Responses

  1. i disagree w/ your point about Ao. Danzo in his thoughts commented that he should have killed the rogue hyuuga ninja when he had the chance. he definitely didn’t know about Ao, or else why would Ao disrupt his plans to allow danzo be the leader of the shinobi alliance.

    good chapter

  2. Excellent blog Bob-o
    Uhm i wanted to ask, who’s the wierdo who looks a little liek bushy brows? And Kisame may win mainly due to the fact that he is up to par with Killer-bee and he knows what killer bee is capable of, unlike Killer bee who just charges full strength, not so smart. And, Sakura want to “talk” to Naruto. i wonder what… 0.o
    It better not be anything risking NaruxHina or else ill try and manga deck Sakura (hahaha sarcastic laugh)
    I really want to see some more Action in teh next chapter, we saw enough Naruto kicks A$$ now i wanna see kisame/killer bee kick A$$ too

  3. I’m still wondering how Kisame found Killer Bee so fast. It’s starting to look like the Narito vs Sasuke fight will be even more exciting if Naruto learns to extend his Sage Mode, looks like its back to toad mountain. It would be nice if learned a few new unique jutsu for his upcoming battles. Next chapter will probably involve some tearful discussion between Naruto and Sakura, but now we have to wait TWO WHOLE FREAKIN WEEKS!!!

  4. So what’s up with the ninja power-ups? Rhetorical question… But I do wonder what tailed beast Kisame is on par with… And I know Itachi and Kisame were partners but I wonder who’s the stronger of the two now…

  5. @dk, totally agree w/ u on the Sakura talk. my hopes r, based on what Sai told her a few chapters ago, the she’ll try telling Naruto that he shouldn’t b doing things for her love anymore since he deserves some1 better (which he does) and while describing who she thinks would b better for him, Sakura (intentionally or not) makes Naruto think of Hinata
    about Kisame vs KillerBee, the 2 r probably on eual grounds as far as chakra goes. i personally hope we c some new powers of Kisame other than shark, made of water and multiple sharks made of water.
    @ trojan samurai; Kisame was stronger, but Itachi was smarter, more balanced, calmer, etc, etc. kinda reminds me of Kakashi vs Guy (Kakashi=Itachi, Kisame=Guy)

  6. I’m finding it hard not to view the Kisame vs Killerbee battle as a huge mismatch in favor of Killerbee, super sword or not… Killerbee i believe, is the more advanced swordsman…

  7. @ Jet Prime, I see the comparisons of Itachi and Kisame to Kakashi and Gai…. I take Itachi over Kisame…

  8. Should be an interesting upcoming chapter. The only real comment I have to make is soon to be battle between Killer Bee and Kisame. I think that as far as chakra goes their even. Kisame is more prepared for this fight and isn’t underestimating his opponent like Bee. I do however have to give the slight edge to Bee, as he has the elemental affinity advantage. Just remember what Darui’s lightning did to Suigetsu, it’ll be the same to Kisame unless he has a trick to guard against it.

  9. Kisame vs killerbee would probably end up with raikage or naruto butting in??

  10. nice post Bob good analysise. I actually quite liked this CHapter Kisame’s a badass. LoL XD and Killer Bee is one of my fav characters now… and @ JPUA I agree thats what the talk is gonna be about but i dont hope…(cause i kinda like Hinata but really their bothe equal for me) that Naruto’s gonna tell Sakura he really only loves her or some cheesy stupid thing that i really dont care about and is wasted space for the Kisame vs Killer Bee FIGHT!

  11. I also agree with Kb on par with kisame.. But there could also be an outside chance that he will get captured..And that will make protecting naruto all the more important, and him to gain control over Kyubii too…because i think Naruto is completely forgotten he is the kyubii jinchuriki..

  12. the post was good as always bob.

    this suck having to wait two weeks to see the fight. it should be a good one but will probably end in a draw.

    question, what if AO is part of root?

  13. I find it suspicious that Danzo and Madara have the same goal this could add to the theory that they are one in the same, I mean they never show them in the same place at once, isn’t it a coincidence that Danzo leaves before Madara shows up! Just saying!!

    Everything is happening so fast, I don’t know who will win the Kisame and Killerbee battle, maybe someone will interfere and help Killerbee if Kisame is too strong, or maybe Killerbee will whoop his ass or escape a gain, who knows. I want Killerbee to win because I don’t like Kisame!

    Naruto needs to hurry up and talk to Sasuke because all this sulking is getting boring. Kishi should let them talk and not fight just yet, so Naruto and Sasuke can know where they both stand and Naruto can finally think about himself because he is too selfless.

    Sakura may help this but I think she needs to get stronger ass well! They should just appoint Kakashi as the hokage already and let Danzo join with Madara!

    I also think the Tsuchikage it secretly working with Madara, why does he want Naruto and Killerbee to fight on the front lines, maybe he’s trying to get them to fight so Madara can capture them!

  14. Naruto’s ineptitude was highlighted in this manga. I mean seriously, you come face to face with your ultimate enemy, try rasengan him, have your senseis wood bind and place a kunai on his neck and the dude still escapes. At some point you must really think to yourself Naruto, that ur 24/7 sage mode might just not be the most effective offensive.

  15. @DarkKnight: I agree as well regarding the Sakura talk, I hope that Kishi is setting up another NaruHina moment.

  16. 1. KB will win the battle
    2. Notice the gaint sword where Master Sab-Chan
    stands on (page 17) KB will use the sword for
    sure !!
    3. And is Suigetsu useing Durai’s sword ?..

  17. clearly kisame is gonna win coz he’s one of the best characters in naruto. killerbee is proper annoying. and i don’t see why people like him when he’s only really been in for about 5 minutes. i also wanna know what suigetsu’s plan is.

  18. i wonder since suigetsu’s sword broke, if he’ll end up taking the sword that enka singer has, hahaha, that would be ridiculous, walking around with that

    suigetsu’s plan is probaly to wear the dead samurais armor and stroll on out

    im pretty sure the suspense is going to last for more than 2 weeks to watch the hachibi vs kisame cuz im sure there gonna devote like half of the next chapter to sakura apologizing to naruto and nonsense

    but yea there is no way kisame is going to lose, and once he does win, this will further everyones cause to unite cuz they have one last chance in protecting naruto before all hell breaks loose, the 4th and LAST ninja world war. The war is gonna turn out like the pain fight, everyone is going to get there butt kicked and boom, naruto shows up to save everyone, although maybe sasuke will see that he was in the wrong and give his life to protect naruto, dammit, why cant they just release the whole story now, i cant stand the wait

  19. Kisame’s gonna throw Killerbee a beating but i still think Killerbee is gonna win…. how lame would it be if Madara had 8 of the bijuu while the alliance only have 1…..

    well now that u say it … it does make it sound more cool if the alliance still won with only one bijuu. So i guess Killerbee, might lose…… well idk but i hope he wins

    OK… next point:
    Y would Madara declare a war when there are like only 3 Akasuki members left…. that’s kinda bizzare to me, and if All of the countries come together that leaves virtually no additional manpower for Madara…. idk how that’s gonna come out

    Is it just me or do all of the “seven swards-men” have sharp teeth?? Kisame, Chojiro, Zabuza…… btw will we kno all of them before the Manga ends??

    FINIALLY, Naruto chose to improve himself, an hopefully wat sakura tells him will influence him more to give up on Saskue, train his but off, LEARN NEW JUTSU (i mean really im not the only one thinking about it), and if he wer to run into Saskue in the near future then he can fight him…

  20. I agree with yellowflash on tsuchikage workin with madara it was mentioned before they used akatsuki’s help and why is that rock ninja with zetsu’s body

  21. ok chapter. did clarify a lot but was kinda borin. @bb sama madara still has the rain country so it wouldnt be totally bad 4 him. and the kisame and bee fight should kick stellar ass. im hoping that naruto will see the light and choose hinata over sakura. cuz they had a good run but the naruxsaku chip is stale =/

  22. New perspectives are being thrown around and bottled up, old ones staying put and getting stale…Kishi MUST be anticipating a bug clash between everyone at the end.

    That weird enka guy on the sword seems to be one of the seven swordsman of the mist! He looks a bit retarded though…But anyone with a massive bear behind them saying some shit about concealed stuff…Never underestimate…that…Shino is rubbing off on me…

    Well…I don’t have much to say about this rinkydink chapter. Karin, Suigetsu and jugo are just thrown aside like they never came…And madara has in fact talen Sasuke to be his lover once more…I mean…


  23. I’m really hoping killer bee win this fight. If Kisame win the fight againts the 8tail by himself would be kind of lame. I mean I know Kisame has the same level chakra as jinchuruki, but I just voted for Killerbee.

    About the sakura talk to naruto..GOD hopefully is not on next chapter..i mean come on..its going to waste of space of the battle between killerbee and kisame. And then going to wait for anotehr week

  24. 1. Quite frankly, lightening trumps water, 7swords trump 1sword and bijuu trumps bijuu level chakra. Therefore KB pwns Kisame!
    2. This fight will only be epic when its shown in the anime… Guess that’ll have to be some time in 2011 :o(

  25. why do some people still think the rain village is on akatsuki’s side. after pain’s death konan would have taken charge and she is now on friendly terms with naruto.

    @naruruler why do you think sabu(the enka guy) is one of the seven swordsmen? just coz he has a big sword? clearly he isnt at all.

  26. about Madara and Ame, based off of the info we were given, Konan’s leading Ame and she’s now an enemy of Akatsuki, so that’s 1 less village that Madara has on his side
    about KB vs Kisame, i’m hoping 4 a hude battle where both use wicked awesome jutsu. as far as the winner, i won’t complain either way
    about the enka guy, he has no connection to Kiri or the 7 swordsmen and i think he might b a loser socially even if he’s a good fighter (kinda like Guy and Lee)

  27. @JPUA
    wow that was so cold that guy and lee are crying “tears of youth” or some sh** in their raw versions. Enka probobly is strong enough because Bee isnt looking too down on him (if at all) and someone with “mad props” woudlnt be looked down on

  28. Cuz the seven swordsman, some of them (namely Chojuro of sorts) Have very different characteristics…And their swords all have different special abilities (and i.e. LOOKS) Chojuro’s is a big hammer, Zabuza’s is…uh…named the Beheade3r (english), Kisame’s is a chakra drainer and skin shredder and looks…NEH! And the sword he’s on look thick…Black…lacklustre and lame…So I come to think he’s one of ’em 😀


  29. This better not be where Kisame dies. If it is, I’ll track down Kishi my damn self and murder his ass JUST! for killing off Kisame.

    Note!!! Kisame is not my favorite character, however, he is that character that is in EVERY anime or manga or fanfic that seemsd like, if he dies, it would be unbelieveable.

    Not sad that he dies or like ripping your face off, but it is just hard to understand…>_>

  30. I don’t think Kisame will die here. He was not too long ago revealed to be closely connected to Tobi/Madara, and I think there is still a lot of plot left to show there.

    That being said, perhaps Killerbee does lose (I mean, we have only seen bits and pieces of what Samehada can do I think), then it could be that he is rescued before his bijuu can be extracted.

    Madara did say that Sasuke wasn’t ready yet to link up to Gedo Mazo (or is it Mezo… too late to do research…), although maybe Sasuke is ready now that he has powered up to Susanoo. If Sasuke isn’t ready yet, it buys everyone time to rescue Killerbee.

  31. FIRST OF ALL IN NARUTO, LIGHTNING BEATS EARTH, NOT WATER. Suigetsu only gets owned by lightning because he’s MADE of physical water. Kisame uses WATER CHAKRA- big difference. I will comment more later

  32. “That weird enka guy on the sword seems to be one of the seven swordsman of the mist! He looks a bit retarded though…”

    “Cuz the seven swordsman, some of them (namely Chojuro of sorts) Have very different characteristics…And their swords all have different special abilities (and i.e. LOOKS) Chojuro’s is a big hammer, Zabuza’s is…uh…named the Beheade3r (english), Kisame’s is a chakra drainer and skin shredder and looks…NEH! And the sword he’s on look thick…Black…lacklustre and lame…So I come to think he’s one of ‘em :-D”

    If this Enka guy is one of the seven swordsmen, that would indeed be weird and make him weird SINCE he doesn’t even know who Kisame is… “Who exactly are you?”



  33. Wow at Kisuzachi, hahahha, i think almost everyone overlooked that whole fact with lightning is greater then earth not water, well in that case…………GO KISAME hahah

  34. @ kisu and renzo, i noticed that too, but i didn’t really care that much. besides, in Pokemon lightning beats water and earth beats lihgtning, so the ppl saying that KB has the advantage might b thinking they’re lil psycho monsters w/ superpowers, lol, but this isn’t Pokemon. btw, does the Pokemon universe not have animal cruelty laws? just something i’ve always wondered

  35. @Kisuzachi: Sorry haha my mistake, I knew that but wasn’t thinking.

    With that in mind, this fight could be very close. All comes down to Kisame and his unseen jutsu

  36. I just hope this kisame and killerbee battle is a good one.

  37. I’m a bit late, kisu. beat me to it, but, at “Bee, as he has the elemental affinity advantage.” kisame’s second element IS earth, so technically those idiots are right. Who ever said that 7 swords beat 1 swords needs to watch one peice specifically Zoro’s battles, having a lot of swords just means you trying to compensate for a lack of… other things… And as far as bijju chakra beating bjju-level chakra, I say that bijju level chakra is better, kisame can eat bijju chakra (Samehada) and doesn’t have to rely on a beast for chakra (meaning he doesn’t have thehuge opening he showed jinkur have when he went up against naruto) and he has already taken down one jinkuri

  38. well do we really know how someones chakra is when they have 2 elements?? cuz ur element is normally going thru your chakra as shown with that leaf to reveal naruto’s chakra. So with someone who has 2 elements, is it going through them together all the time, or do they summon the other element whenever they want to use it?? cuz if thats the case then as long as kisame’s earth chakra isn’t active and only the water, he’ll be fine

  39. it doesnt mean your weak against the element personally i don’t think rather attacks or less effective. eg wind is weak against fire but that doesnt mean naruto specifically is. rather his attacks are.

  40. i cant wait to see the next meeting between garaa and Naruto. it looks like it will be in a few chapters.

    also, the shat with sakura will be interesting. will she confess her love of him, which though subtle i think has been starting to show up in recent chapters, or will she tell naruto they have to kill sasuke.

    kishi has naruto’s generation following a similar path of the previous generation. sasuke left just like orochimaru. i think right before jiraya died you saw the 5th hokage’s feelings for him start to show, and i think thats starting to happen with sakura.

    to be honest i though it doesnt seem to me like naruto feels the same way about sakura. i think his love of her has changed to something other then of couplehood.

  41. Just curious, where does it say Kisame’s other element is Earth? I’ve never seen him use any earth techniques, and I don’t think it says it in the data book. Anyone have an official say on the matter?

    As to what chakra beats what, it is true that there is the typical cycle of fire>wind>lightening>earth>water>fire, and this means that a lightening technique will be amplified by an earth technique of the SAME LEVEL. I would guess that if you used a wimply earth jutsu, like an earth missile, against Kisame’s exploding water shockwave , the earth missile wouldn’t do much.

    I think that a ninja’s natural chakra affinity is what their own chakra generally points toward, so that when they mold a jutsu, that element is easier. I don’t think getting directly hit by a jutsu of an opposing element really causes more damage to you, because Naruto still had to add wind chakra to his rasengan, it didn’t naturally form with wind chakra to begin with.

  42. http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kisame

    shows kisame’s elemental affinity as water and earth on the box on the right

  43. Ok, I stand corrected. I usually don’t read the wikia… I feel like they get it wrong as much as they get it right.

  44. One thing though I don’t get about tunneling jutsus… Naruto could tunnel wayyy back in the Chunnin exams versus Neji… yet I would never consider himself to be able to control the earth element. Seems like anyone can tunnel really, but I don’t think that makes them able to use Earth.

  45. Chakra nature doesn’t mean anything unless you add it into a jutsu, suigetsu’s watery form is just a continous jutsu. Also water is beat by earth, if anything, the fact that Suigetsu got hit by lightning and LIVED shows that water isn’t < earth, anyone else would have been f$&@Ed up ex. Deidara/Zabuza/Naruto.

  46. “Seems like anyone can tunnel really, but I don’t think that makes them able to use Earth.” I think it’s the range/scope/skill of the jutsu, ex. Explosive Tags make fire but aren’t fire jutsu. The Tunneling jutsu help you tunnel, but you don’t NEED them.

  47. my guest…i think the last jincuriiki is naruto…the next episode..killerbee going to lost again kisame….hope he can try

  48. great chapter a little boring though, it sets up the incoming chapters, one big question is how will tobi utilize the stored up bijuu, let roam free to destroy villages or seal them in willing shinobi to fight on his side, i agree with everyone else naruto will go through more trainning but i also hope he acquires some new jutsu, one big thing is zetsu was carried by the rock kunoichi, whats the meaning behind that is she curious, zetsu isnt dead he’ll pull some suction life jutsu, stay in her body and infiltrate the rock village, i think kisame is the next to die in the akautski


    im not martha!!!!

  49. This Japanese enka guy looks like a distant relative of Lee |D

  50. kilerbree will defentley winn

  51. @Mart1& Kisuzachi: well, lightning beats earth, not water. that is very much true. but lightning does have an advantage over water. remember the battle between Kakuzu and Kakashi’s team? Kakauzu was standing on water and got heat by one of his own lighting attack. that was because water carried the lightning attack. if KillerBee can use his lightning well enough, then it is indeed a plus point.

    @Mart1: what you said means that Suigetsu survived the attack because he doesn’t have earth. i have no problem with that.

    what i have problem with is the name of Naruto and Zabuza in the list of people who will die. have we ever seen Zabuza using an attack that is earth elemental? when did he used an elemental attack that is not water based? and about Naruto, he has wind element which is stronger against lightning.

    If you say that element is not the fact, it is just Darui is stronger than Naruto, then i have no comment.

  52. @ripcord

    naruto tunneled in the chunnin exams by hand. he didnt use any jutsu. thats why they show is fingernails bloodied and cracked.

    one doesnt need a tunneling jutsu to tunnel, it just makes it quicker and easier.

  53. @ darkprince, uhm, nobody mentioned Zabuza, unless you’re getting him confused w/ Kisame. and i think Naruto’s tunneling wasn’t Doton but instead just him digging. Kisame’s however, allowed him to practically swim underground and at incredible speeds

  54. “Kakauzu was standing on water” again that’s not showing lightning beating water, but water beating lightning, Kakuzu used lightning and shikamaru used the water. As for zabuza and naruto, with Zabuza I was actually meaning Haku (Zabuza was the intended victim) and Naruto I am refering to Sasuke puncturing his lung in part 1 (he kyubii healed a second later) I was NOT saying anything about earth, I was comparing water to non-water. And naruto only has one wind attack, he only has the element advantage when using that one attack.

  55. @ripcord

    naruto didnt use a jutsu in the chunin exam. he actually dug, you know, with his hands. some people do still do that, maight be why at the end they showed his fingernails cracked and bleeding.

  56. @mart1: i didn’t mean that lightning beats water. but it has advantage. Kisame will be in conduct with water and then KillerBee can use a lightning attack at any point of water which will be carried to Kisame.

  57. @ darkprince, but that can b turned into an advantage (if Kisame’s smart enuf to) by having water surround BUT not touch him, redirecting the lightning away from him, and to make it go further, it can b turned into a way to have the attack b redirested to KB, but again, if Kisame’s smart enuf and KB’s gullible enuf, neither of which i’m sure about

  58. @BringerofKaos

    Yes, I get that… but people often consider it a Doton when Kakashi pulled Sasuke underground up to his neck… and yet this is just digging too. It just seems one of the vague things in the manga to me, that’s all.

    @Jet Prime

    It seems to me that the Raikage and his brother are not affected by anyone’s lightening attacks much (Sasuke as the example here) so if they were hit by their own, I doubt they’d suffer much damage.

    Of course, we don’t know if KB is able to do anything with lightening chakra other than project it down his swords. I’m also curious to know if Samehada is able to eat up chakra that is channeling through a blade, thus making it not as sharp.

  59. In a general sense I favor the water doesn’t lose to lightning arguement, and by that I mean there are things like shikamaru’s counter to kakuzu or in an even broader sense, things like in Avatar how they redirect lightning. BUT I think Kisame doesn’t have the skill to do these things. However he doesn’t have suigetsu’s “weakness” because he isn’t MADE of water, and while lightning IS conducted by water, he doesn’t have to touch his water to use it ex. His shark bombs or riding a wave on Samehada (he has done this before) though I do agree that lightning might be null against KB. On to mention the sword point you just made, I think Kisame has that as am edge, but at the risk of overestimating him, I think KB has more than one style jutsu. I put them at about equal.

  60. @mart1: what you are saying is exactly the advantage of lightning against water. Kisame will always have to be careful about not to touch the water, that’s how the advantage works. it is one plus point for lightning. i am not saying that KillerBee will defeat Kisame or KillerBee will use the startegy, but you cannot deny the advantage lightning has here.

    i hope that you understand my point. lightning does not beat water, but it does have some advantage.

  61. for first does it looks like raikage still got amaterasu on his hand!!!!

    also the 11th page is quite confusing—
    it seems both jugo and suigetsu is fit and fine all of a sudden.
    and wht with all those copy of zetsu shells doing with kunai in them!!!
    who r all these people dead in the path!!!!

  62. well for the “- how the heck did Sakura’s group get to Iron country so fast? Weren’t they still in Konoha just last chapter?” if i remember well in the chapter were naruto left out .he did a sexy jutsu to the anbu in konoha and at the end of the chapter was at the border of the iron country so it normal i guess =)

  63. “what you are saying is exactly the advantage of lightning against water. Kisame will always have to be careful about not to touch the water”- kisame mostly figts without touching his water directly. He always uses it as either sharks or huge waves. And like Jet Prime said, using lightning on KISAME’S water would actually be an advantage for him. example, Killerbee uses a raiton on the water, then kisame uses water shockwave jutsu (giant tidal wave), killerbee would have an electrified wave coming at him.

    “It seems to me that the Raikage and his brother are not affected by anyone’s lightening attacks much”- Raikage’s Raiton armor protected him from Sasuke’s attacks, and Killerbee countered Sasugay’s lightning with his ow.

  64. Building on kisu.’s comment, @: “Kisame will always have to be careful about not to touch the water, that’s how the advantage works.” Kisame has to b carefull not to get hit no matter what he does, but if he gets hit through water, he has some chance at deflection, it’s not like there aren’t long range lightning jutsu that would have the same (or more powerfull) effects as a water-cunducted attack. Also, if Kisame hits him with water, then it would short cicuit his attacks making them less or compleatly ineffective.

  65. oh yeah… i’m way pretty nervous bout this but… i’m i gonna be a blog contributor or not?

  66. @ ripcord, earth element manipulates the earth thru chakra and molds it, it’s not digging. digging is using hands, while what Kakashi did was use earth chakra to mold the earth around him so he can move underground like a fish under water. Kisame did the same thing (only w/ samheada sticking out) upon his arrival to his fight against team Guy

  67. @Jet Prime

    OK I guess I can see it, kindof like how you can light a fire with sticks or use a fire jutsu, one is a lot faster/better than the other. It was never obvious, I mean whenever they were tunneling, it’s not like you could see it, but I get it now.

  68. ok like pleasssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssse let me know if i’m gonna be a blog contributor????!

  69. @ ripcord, glad u understand now
    @ dawnstone, just keep commenting and maybe submit a post or 2. don’t worry, we’ll accept u as long as u make your presence known

  70. this seems awfully boring, no one is commenting much…..I SUGGEST A DEBATE! I’ll let someone else figure out what the debate should be about, I’ve done my part by suggesting it 8)

  71. @dawnstone,
    I already sent you an email on your submission, so plz stop using the comment section for this stuff cuz it’s annoying. If you didn’t get the email, l can resend it.

  72. a debate huh? ok well umm. who do you think the next person from the manga will be to die from konoha? with the possability of another ninja war it stands to reason that we may see the manga get shaken up.

    there is the chance for bijou everywhere and what great nation isnt going to want to grab 1 of them 7 out there for themselves?

    and will madara actually send the bijou out? i mean after so much time spent aquiring the 7 he has why would he want to risk loosing any of them?

    and what the hell is up with the 5th hokage? is kishi going to have her sleep through the whole ninja war / alliance thing thats going on now?

    what is going to happen with this next chapter envolving naruto and sakura? will sakura finnaly accept she may have feelings for naruto? or will she just say we need to kill sasuke?

    and finnaly do you think sasuke or madara will be naruto’s next fight. who is the focus really on? naruto has been trying to save sasuke but the 4th hokage gave naruto the 9 tails so he would have enough power to kill madara, showing that madara may be the end focus of the manga.

  73. @kisuzachi: a debate? then lets do it on whole different topic. may be an made up battle: “who will win between those two” (eg. Itachi vs Nagato) or may be something like that can be a good topic for debate.

    i think this will be better than a debate on a theory. because all will have to find out things from manga and then use it to defend the character they support.

    but still, there can be interesting theories to debate also. like, “What power Madara does possess now” or “Madara helped creating the strongest ninja alliance” etc.

  74. i will join in if somone makes one up.kisu why dont you just a post with debate?like how is madara is going to get all these ninja from like what dark said?

  75. I think Itachi would beat Pein, especially if he had some knowledge on Pein’s abilities. I say this because genjutsu seems to be Pein’s weakest point.

    My choice for a debate would be an invent-a-jutsu contest focusing more on uniqueness than power

  76. Bah, I think Itachi vs Pain would be a tad boring, even if he knew Pain’s abilities. His Genjutsus won’t work because Pain has the Rinnegan, which gives him enhanced vision and the ability to see chakra (which is normally invisible). Genjutsu disrupts chakra flow, but none of Pain’s bodies have their own chakra, all Nagato has to do is adjust the frequency of his chakra transmitters (after the Rinnegan tells him the bodies are in a genjutsu). Amaterasu would never hit any of the bodies, as a well placed Shinra Tensei could knock it back at Itachi. Itachi’s speed is also a non-factor, as Demon Realm Pain was fast enough to surprise even Tsunade (although she was in a weakened state). That just leaves Susanoo. Hmm, a well placed Chibaku Tensei would do the trick, or perhaps Gedo Mazo could simply remove Itachi’s soul, or even Human Realm could do that.

  77. “His Genjutsus won’t work because Pain has the Rinnegan, which gives him enhanced vision and the ability to see chakra” that’s not nesscarily true, Jariya’s genjutsu fucked Pein up, and that genjutsu wasn’t quite on Itachi’s level. I think Sussano could take on GRP while Amatseru would be used to take on the revival pein (can hit him even if he’s in the back, and sharingan would pick up on the defensive formation pretty quickly) as well as animal pein (because the quickest way for someone physically weak like Itachi to take out all those massive summons is to take out the summoner) and maybe that chakra stealing guy (potentially dangerous for a low-chakra person like Itachi) I don’t see the other guys as much of a threat after genjutsu.

  78. @Mart, Jiraiya’s genjutsu was actually Ma and Pa toads SOUND Genjutsu. The Rinnegan can’t see sound, so they got away with that, but Itachi’s genjutsus are all VISUAL based, so there’s no getting away for him.

  79. Well there is a reason Pain was the Leader of Akatsuki and Itachi was a field soldier…….
    I doubt Susanoo has the raw power of the Kyubi’s 8 tailed form, so Pain’s normal Chibaku Tensei should be enough (he claimed to have a more powerful version after the 8 tailed form broke out). As for Amaterasu, its still technically a jutsu, so Hungry Ghost Realm can absorb it. I don’t see any way for Itachi to beat Pain.

  80. I agree completely with Kisu… Pain will win hands down.

    Jiraiya/Ma/Pa Toads’ genjutsu just caught Pain off guard. But no worries as Pain ended up countering it at the end. It’s debatable which technique is stronger – the Sage Toad Song or Itachi’s genjutsu. According to Pain, the toad genjutsu is an extremely high level tech… not some Kurenai level BS.

    Also, Pain basically bitch slapped Pa Toad when he and Ma tried the same thing during Naruto v Pain.

    With regards to Rinnegan v Sharingan, IMO the Rinnegan should (must) negate the Sharingan’s genjutsu abilities (and maybe more) since it’s the most superior eye and the Sharingan is a watered down genetic mutation of the Rinnegan.

    Remember, Kishi has probably only explained 10% of the Rinnegan’s abilities, while the Sharingan has been anal fed to all for 10 years.

  81. I think Itachi’s genjutsus are very powerful, but they only affect one person at a time, so that would leave him vulnerable. I don’t think he’d have time to put multiple Pain’s in a genjutsu before the others could restore the chakra flow.

    As to the Rinnegan “seeing through” the genjutsu, I don’t think they are any better than the Sharingan. It doesn’t matter what sense is used to create the genjutsu (I believe Itachi could know and “dispell” a genjutsu made from sound just as easily as one from sight), and Pain was unable to “see through” Jiraiya’s genjutsu.

    I believe that the Rin’negan’s ability to “see” things like chakra is a projected ability, just like the others. When God Realm saw the barrier around Konoha, Nagato had to project that ability into God Realm, so just because all the bodies have the Rin’negan doesn’t mean they can all see extra special.

    I don’t know if Itachi would have lost the battle against Pain, the MS is very powerful. The biggest wild card is whether Amaterasu could be eaten up by Ghost Realm.

  82. @ripcord

    I wouldn’t say Itachi’s genjutsu is limited to one person. If you recall the Itachi VS Kakashi fight, Kakashi told Azuma and Kurenai too close their eyes or they’ll fall into Itachi’s genjutsu.

    The only reason Naruto fell into the genjutsu is because Itachi was targeting him.

  83. I don’t know, I mean we’ve never seen Itachi cast a genjutsu on more than one person, plus Kakashi told them both to cover their eyes because Itachi could cast a genjutsu on EITHER of them. I mean, it isn’t like he’d pick favorites “ok, Kurenai, I don’t like you much, so keep your eyes open” “psst, hey Asuma, you’d better close your eyes.”

  84. “SOUND Genjutsu” Itachi is a genjutsu master, I doubt he only knows visual based genjutsu. I also doubt that the Renningan would give Pein ABSOLUTE power (some advantage, but getting to that) over “visual based” genjutsu, the Renningan is more powerful, but the sharingan is specialized for things like genjutsu. Even Sasuke had trouble countering Itachi’s genjutsu w/ a sharingan w/ special training. It’s a power vs. Skill thing. Also the Renningan might be Pein’s greatest weakness, because it is a direct link into Nagato’s mind, if Itachi knew about Nagato’s multiple bodies he might be able to use this link (that Naruto showed definately exists) to target Nagato or if he didn’t, he might discover it in doing so.

    Also he CAN and HAS used multi-person genjutsu as seen when he knocked out the gate guard while invading kohana, BUT, like all multi-person jutsu, they are weaker than a one person version because you need double the chakra or you get half the effect. I think Pein (seeing as he was basically a figure-head) was given the “Leader” position by Madara to appease his ego/win him over, what would Madara gain from giving Itachi the position? I say Sussano beats Chibaku sensei because the “Yammata Mirror” allows him to reflect (not just block) any attack, meaning he could trap GRP in his own jutsu no matter how strong. Ghost realm is a good point, sussano’s sword would have to take him on, not Amatseru.

  85. Oh I ment to say gate guards, to mention a stealth ninja like Itachi in a figurehead leadership position would be a bad idea because then he can’t exactly be stealthy and to mention that even if ghost realm pein can absorb Amatseru, I doubt he could save anyother body at the same time, or that GRP could block Amatseru with Shinrei Tensei because it would continue to appear on him as long as he was within Itachi’s sights.

  86. @mart1

    Can you refresh my memory when Itachi used a multi-person genjutsu? Do you mean when he showed up with Kisame in Part I? If so… that is not in the manga, and in my opinion, anime doesn’t count. Second, Susanoo won’t help against getting pulled in by gravity. I guess Itachi could direct Yata’s mirror into the center of the gravity ball to prevent himself from getting crushed, but he’d still get sucked toward it and covered in rocks.

    Madara basically told Nagato that he would lead Akatsuki and Madara would provide support, but he wouldn’t take an active role. Then later on, when things “looked tougher” when Sasori died (I bet Madara/Tobi planned it though), he said “I need to take a more active role.”

  87. @Mart, really? Itachi never even alluded to having other forms of Genjutsu. He’s a Sharingan user, and as such, he put more effort into learning visual based Genjutsu. And since the Rinnegan can see chakra, visual Genjutsu won’t work.

    “Also the Renningan might be Pein’s greatest weakness, because it is a direct link into Nagato’s mind”, not necessarily. I think you misunderstood the moments the fox startled Nagato. It didn’t enter his mind, or find his thoughts, the massive foul chakra of the Kyubi simply shook Nagato (frightened/shocked him).

    “Even Sasuke had trouble countering Itachi’s genjutsu w/ a sharingan w/ special training”, but he did show you can break Genjutsu with raw power, and Sasuke doesn’t even come close to having as much RAW power as Nagato did.

    “I think Pein (seeing as he was basically a figure-head) was given the “Leader” position by Madara to appease his ego/win him over”, are you saying Pain wasn’t strong enough to be the leader? If that IS what you’re saying, then you need to watch Pain’s battles again lol. He was easily more powerful than any Akatsuki member. Pain beat Jiraiya (someone Itachi didn’t want to fight {and don’t say this is because Itachi was working for Jiraiya as a spy}), destroyed the most powerful Shinobi Village on his own, defeated the 6 tailed form of the Kyubi, alluded to being able to defeat the 8 tailed transformation (“will I have to use a bigger Chibaku Tensei”), defeated Tsunade (though she was already weakened), killed Kakashi and beat Choza, defeated Naruto in Sage Mode (the point where he had Naruto pinned down before Hinata interrupted) after wasting huge amounts of chakra in his attack, killed Hanzo (a man powerful enough to beat the Sanin in their prime) and after his invasion and battle with Naruto he still had enough power to revive everyone he killed. Itachi couldn’t do all that, Pain is the rightful leader of Akatsuki (power-wise).

    “I doubt he could save anyother body at the same time” Hungry Ghost Realm can protect everyone. In his fight with Jiraiya, he protected the other bodies from the wind-fire-oil combo, and that combo had a wide attack range. If you must dispute this, then all the bodies could simply go behind Hungry Ghost and let Itachi waste his weak chakra reserves.

    “I say Sussano beats Chibaku sensei because the “Yammata Mirror” allows him to reflect (not just block) any attack”, so it can even reflect gravity? Chibaku Tensei has the effect of a Black Hole (well almost), so even if the rocks were reflected, the gravity would automatically pull them back. And we don’t know exactly how strong Yata’s Mirror is, but like I said before, I doubt it’s as strong as the Kyubi in its 8 tailed form.

    “Ghost realm is a good point, sussano’s sword would have to take him on”, Susanoo’s sword is still a sealing NINJUTSU, and as such, Hungry Ghost Realm would Negate its effect.

  88. @ripcord: I went and checked, the guards WERE only in the anime (and I agree that doesn’t count.) However there are other things that show visual based jutsu’s aren’t one-person only, Madara plans to enslave the whole world in Tskyumi, and all he lacks is the neccesary chakra. As far as Yammata’s mirror, I could be wrong, but supposedly it reflects all attacks, this means that the gravity Pein would try to use on Itachi would be shot back at him and Pein, not Itachi would then be covered in rocks/crushed

  89. @Mart, Chibaku Tensei shouldn’t be considered an ATTACK, but rather a sealing Technique. It uses gravity to keep the target in place and the rocks simply act as extra locks. I doubt a mirror can reflect gravity.

  90. @Kisu. On the sound thing, Naruto’s the only ninja who knows a grand total of three jutsu, the rest actually have a few besides their go-to moves, but meh, that was just where my train of thought started.

    On Pein being the leader, Clearly Madara is the real leader of Akatsuki and Pein is his bitch. This is obviously NOT because Madara is more powerful than Pein, and unless he can use his other-person transportaion on a much larger scale than thus far seen he would have no chance of doing what Pein did to kohana. However, he is much cleverer and much more skilled, and that is why Pein took orders. Itachi against Pein is a similar thing, Pein may have massive amounts of POWER but his jutsu have huge flaws, and that is how Itachi would win.

    On the nagato connection. I am refering NOT to what happened when naruto was standing three feet away from pein, but when he was roughly a mile away in hiding and Naruto tracked him down through the chakra rods, clearly chakra can be sent either way along the rods, so Nagato’s chakra could be disrupted from a distance.

    On hungry-ghost. His absorption was through a barrier but Itachi can see through the barrier leaving the rest of them open to attack. As fat as HG maybe, I doubt 5 people could hide behind him and this would leave HG open to attack because the rest of their mobility would be sacrificed. HG also can’t stop Sussano’s sword, because while it has a sealing ninjutsu effect it has a physical reality (it is a real sword) as seen when it actually cut Oro. Meaning again HG’s barriers would be useless.

    On Yammata’s mirror. Read what I wrote ripcord

  91. @”Chibaku Tensei” Chibaku Tensei creates ACTUAL gravity and has NOTHING to do with an extra dimmensional space however much it might resemble a blackhole or whatever theories people might hold about the workings of black holes, it is an energy based jutsu not a time/space jutsu and thus is not a sealing technique. Therefore it CAN be reflected by Yammata’s mirror.

  92. on Pein vs Itachi, Pein’s definatly WAAY stronger, but Itachi’s much, much, much, much, much, smarter. (face it kisu, Nagato definatly wasn’t the brightest bulb in the box when he made the plan to destroy 90% of the world just so other ppl will b to afraid of him to it themselve). but i don’t think Itachi could counter G-realm Pein’s larger scale attacks w/out halving his lifespan by using Susanoo (note: i know it doesn’t half the lifespan, i’m just saying it has a really high price) and i think Ametarsu could b countered by Fatso-realm and if it can’t, then i’m sure Hell realm’s revival tech can save him. so, i think Pein would win, but if Itachi wipped out Susanoo, it would definitly b a close match

  93. if itachi was at full strength and not basically not half blind and severely ill he could beat anyone in the naruto universe. he’s one of the smartest ninja has amazing ms skills and i imagine if his body wasnt so weak from illness he would be adept at using taijutsu and more attack minded ninjutsu. and people saying that pain was leader because he was stronger are not neccesarily right. itachi wouldnt have wanted to be leader because he was keeping an eye on madara and akatsuki.he didnt actually want to help them achieve their goals as evidenced by the fact he never attempted to capture the nine tails even though he had plenty pf chances. and he didnt fight jiraiya because he didnt want to risk further weakening/blinding himself by fighting such a strong opponent.

  94. “if itachi was at full strength” the same could be said of Pein, imagine if Pein was moble/didn’t have to worry about his jutsu’s side effects. The only comparisons we can make are when they died because those fights are the only ones that showed the limit of their abilities. Itachi or Pein “at full power” could mean any number of things because we don’t know how strong they truely would have been “at full power” so we could make either one infinatley stronger

  95. The only thing we can say about who the strongest fighters , are the ones that are alive in the manga, and personally I think the Raikage is the strongest he was tearin sasuke a new , madara cant do nething right now and personally other than his time/space jutsu what can he do, weve not seen him once kill anyone he just threatins, Sasuke is of course up there but cmon he’s already being affected by over using his eyes, it was shown his eyes gettin worse either before the fight with killer bee or after, even worse now, killerbee hasnt yet showed his full power which will get to see it with the fight against kisame, and as far as naruto goes, id put him right with sasuke’s power, and I gotta feelin that Naruto is gonna get trained by killerbee, and when he is able to control the fox he will be able to combine fox power with sage mode and become the baddest f’er around, but as far as talkin about itachi and pein, we dont know enough about them to say anything, itachi was strong physically untill he got ill, we dont know much about his speed since we only seen use his genjutsu mostly, and with pein I think if he hadn tried to seal the fox up and use alot of chakra he coulda beat naruto but no point in sayin who was stronger since there both dead, wanna bring up dead guys ill bring up the 4th hokage and want then hed kick everones ass lol

  96. How does Pain’s plan tell you how smart he is? His plan is extremely complex (if it wasn’t wouldn’t the other Villages have figured it out by now?).

    @Mart, you say his jutsus have huge flaws, I still don’t see any. HGR doesn’t create a barrier to absorb chakra. In the databook Kishi explained how his absorption worked (it should also be on any self respecting naruto info site). As for the sword, the main problem the sword present is its sealing. HGR can absorb the chakra from the sword, and Susanoo’s random swings with a normal sword wouldn’t pose much of a threat when GRP (Shinra Tensei) and HRP (Revive Body no Jutsu) are there.

    “His absorption was through a barrier but Itachi can see through the barrier leaving the rest of them open to attack”, what Itachi has the Byakugan now?

    “On Pein being the leader, Clearly Madara is the real leader of Akatsuki and Pein is his bitch”- not many members knew this. Pain is the only ninja that was strong enough to lead Akatsuki, while Madara was its benefactor. If Pain wasn’t as strong as he was, guys like Hidan would be trying to take over the organization or doing some other stupid stuff. Who would listen to a blind guy that is of similar lever to themselves?

    “it is an energy based jutsu not a time/space jutsu and thus is not a sealing technique.” a sealing technique basically prevents movement of some kind, that’s what Chibaku Tensei does. Pain sealed Naruto in a huge moon thingy and he broke out through brute force.

    “and Naruto tracked him down through the chakra rods, clearly chakra can be sent either way along the rods, so Nagato’s chakra could be disrupted from a distance.”, nah. All Naruto did was use the rods to find the transmitter. To disrupt Nagato’s chakra that’s being transported, you’ d have to have Biju level chakra AND make your move after he’s wasted A LOT of his chakra.

  97. haha people can’t live without a debatE!!!!!

    pein have the advantage due to no of his bodies one on one he don’t stand a chance against itachi!!!

  98. Where is the evidence coming from highlighting Pain’s retardedness? The guy was basically the POWERHOUSE and had a GOAL (eventual PEACE, but not after everyone feels PAIN first). You ever hear of the phrase “the end justifies the means”? Pain allied himself with someone who has 100+ years of experience (battle, and most important STRATEGY) as the Chief Strategic Officer.

    This doesn’t mean Madara was stronger than Pain. Pain delegated the behind the scenes stuff to Madara while Pain was the face of the organization. They were EQUALS – Co-CEO/Presidents.

    Another example is the last US President (GW Bush) and VP (Dick Cheney). Bush had the official power to do the shit… but obviously the brains behind the operation was Dick Cheney. Bush obviously had WAY more flaws relatively than Pain, but the example is comparable.

  99. Also, if you think that Madara ‘using’ Pain to achieve his Moon’s Eye Plan is evidence enuff of Pain behind dumb… well, let’s NOT forget Madara pwned Itachi’s plans to keep Sasuke far away and safe as possible…

    In fact, Madara read Itachi so easily and snatched Sasuke by simply telling him a story.

    Madara basically toyed with Itachi’s life goal of protecting his beloved bro and making Sasuke a hero by letting him slay his S-class criminal brother…

  100. there are a lot of topics are being discussed right now in this debate. however i will talk about the genjutsu thing only.

    Pain was caught by the genjutsu jiraiya used. let’s what did happen after that. Jiraiya caught three bodies and the other three bodies were roaming freely. what does that mean? you can catch one pain, but others will be free from the genjutsu.

    the genjutsu jiraiya used was one of the strongest we have seen, same can be said about tsukyomi. but tsukyomi has one more drawbacks. it requires eye contact. Itachi can only use it to catch only one pain and other pains will be free to attack him. no matter what you say, tsukyomi cannot catch more than one person at once. and other genjutsu won’t work on Nagato.

  101. @manisuchiha, all the bodies count as one individual, they’re basically a jutsu. Now if it was a one on one fight, this debate wouldn’t even be happening. Remember Nagato has the powers of ALL 6 Paths, plus his own 7th Path, Itachi wouldn’t stand a chance against Nagato.

  102. @kisu- u r saying giving the same theory with different view….
    u agree with the usage of all bodies whether in the form of jutsu it still has a human form that involves a large battle factor!!!!
    outnmbering any enemy is an advantage!!!!
    having 6 bodies is a natural advantage pein got over itachi due to his rinnegan ability!!!

    if any of the body have to engage in battle alone the table can be turned!!!
    even kakshi took out one of his body while fighting two of them at a time!!!
    then if u rem itachi said ones that if he was to engage jiraya either of them wil die, this makes him if not par not less then jiriya!!!
    now pein agreed to the point that he would’ve lost if jiriya knew the secret!!!this brings us to think that after spending so many years in akatsuki as a double agent itachi must’ve gained knowlege on other members!!

    it was just a theory which could be practicaly right if pein would ever fight alone without his bodies!!!
    pein got much more chakra than itachi i guess!!!!
    if u take out death realm out of the scene, things will change!!!!

  103. @manisuchiha, what’s with all the exclamations? anyway, Pain was extremely secretive, so i doubt he even knew how Pain looked (besides his hologram). And the Six Paths (like Clone jutsus) is a jutsu, so its fair

  104. @ kisu, on Pein’s intellegence: 1, his plan was completely unrealistic, it’s human nature to fight, and fear will only breed more fighting, causing it to backfire almost instantly (and, no, the ends NEVER justify the means) ; 2, he has this tendency to forget to make sure his opponant’s dead, or as it’s called in Zombieland, to “double-tap”, ex (in order): Kakashi, Choza, the entire village of Konoha and Hinata. that’s y i say he’s not very smart, altho, certain ppl can make up for it w/ unrealistic brute strength, and Pein’s definatly 1 of those ppl. and i’m saying he’s retarded, just not a genius either

  105. oh, PS kisu, i actually didn’t recognize u for a while since your new gravatar’s so girly: pink and frilly, just like Sakura

  106. @Jpua, “he has this tendency to forget to make sure his opponant’s dead”- I thought I was the only person to realize this lol. I think he doesn’t bother to check because the people that get into this situation are not much of a thrat to him. He DID make sure Jiraiya died though, because Jiraiya was a threat.

    “his plan was completely unrealistic, it’s human nature to fight, and fear will only breed more fighting”, well I doubt that. Think of a weapon that has the power of ALL the Biju, essentially a copy of the Ten Tails, and its used to destroy nations, no one would want to fight because the tremendous fear of that weapon.

    “oh, PS kisu, i actually didn’t recognize u for a while since your new gravatar’s so girly: pink and frilly, just like Sakura”, NO IT ISN’T! This is the coolest Bleach character ever, nothing like Sakura -_-‘

  107. “This doesn’t mean Madara was stronger than Pain. Pain delegated the behind the scenes stuff to Madara while Pain was the face of the organization. They were EQUALS – Co-CEO/Presidents.” yes it does mean Madara is stronger, even if say two Aktsuki like Hidan and Kakuzu teamed up against Madara he could still destroy them in a battle (teleport Kakuzu’s hearts away from his body then remove Hidan’s string) now while Madara MIGHT not be able to take on all of Akatsuki at once, (seeing as he didn’t take on the five kages at once) he can always fight in a gurilla warfare type style, taking out the whole group one by one. Also Madara could own Pein

    @DP: Even if you need eye contact for Tskyoumi, you can make shadow clones to have six eyes at once and while the strain would be high, I think if Itachi though this was the best way to win he would so. (though sussano might be a better way.

    @Kisu. 1. A sealing technique: http://naruto.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:BrowseData/Jutsu&Jutsu_classification=Fūinjutsu as you can see, chibaku tensei is not a sealing technique simply because it immobilizes the opponent. Nor does it fit the deffinition of one or have that many similaritiies to any of the other sealing techniques. I think you are combining it in you mind with the seperate technique he used to seal/seperate the jubi’s chakra. Chibaku Tensei is just to trap the Jubi’s actual body so that a revival technique couldn’t be used on it. It’s like how the third sealed hiS soul with DC seal but still had a physical body for burial.

    “Biju level chakra AND make your move” not really, people with Bijju level chakra ex. Naruto and Kisame are still subject to Genjutsu, even more so because they tend to be idiots due to never really needing skill and don’t tend to be able to focus on small amounts of their huge chakra reserve. Naruto’s use of senjutsu was for the chakra control/sensing aspect not the shear power aspect. Sasuke was able to overcome Tskyoumi with the “shear power” of his sharingan, but it was because he was so skilled with that he could in the first place.

    “Susanoo’s random swings” What I am saying is that because the sword is real he can’t block the sealing effect (which is non-fatal so HRP

  108. @ kisu, well, don’t u think ppl will try stealing that power? it won’t work, but they’ll try, breeding more violence than nessesary. on your avatar, sorry, i started reading Bleach, but got sidetracked, so i’m still stuck in the Soul-Society arc. i don’t know who that is and the fact it’s so pink makes me think of Sakura

  109. @kisu–don’t mind the exclamations, just like to keep them at the end for my own fun!!!
    as “i doubt he even knew how Pain looked (besides his hologram).”
    i doubt that’s the case, since itachi was the one of the only two member who knew abt the real secret of akatasaki and madara(other person is pein himself).
    being so close two the madara actions knowing nothing abt pein is unreasonable!!

    @jpua- i was quite surprised when u made the point of kisu using sakura avatar!! he’s certainly not the sakura type.it would suck to have a pink panther here.

    @kisu- looking closely and u find Espada-8,i guess. he’s quite kabuto(scientific maniac).
    i think there is a lot more cool characters in bleach!

    for me kenpachi,byakuya,ishida,ulquira,grimmojow!!!

  110. @ manisuchiha, i didn’t say it was Sakura, i said it reminded me of her. there’s a difference

  111. @kisu. “no one would want to fight” that’s the rational but look at how many wars have been fought since the invention of the atom bomb, a comprable real world force.

    “what Itachi has the Byakugan now” no, seeing as how the barrier is tangible yet invisable, Amatseru would by-pass it due to it’s time-space nature.

  112. @jpua– it was really s’ting that shook kisu off!!!lol

  113. @ mart 1: Kakashi is the leader of Team 7, so he’s OBVIOUSLY stronger than NARUTO right? Dude, Madara’s in a weakened state. Pain is stronger.. just accept this FACT.

    Rikudo Sennin is the strongest ever by far. Even if Pain has 25% of the Sennin’s ability, he’s still stronger than everyone else. Pain was just MANIPULATED by a guy with 100+ years of LIFE experience.

    @ mart 1: so Itachi has unlimited chakra reserves to spend now? Tskyoumi uses a lot of chakra… I doubt 6 clones will ALL be able to use it at once.. even if they did, what else can they do afterward with no chakra?

    I see manu is talking non-sense again.

  114. @star69 will u explain”I see manu is talking non-sense again.”

  115. “Itachi has unlimited chakra” as I said above, any multi-person technique is obviously going to be weaker than the one-person variant BUT that doesn’t mean it can’t be used. As long as he is using it against the same person it is the same battle anyway just in a different form. My point is that he isn’t limited to using Genjutsu on one person.
    @pein is stronger than Madara: Stronger yes, more skilled no.
    Until Sage mode, Kakashi could have easily owned Naruto, now I will admit that Naruto has an advantage, though by how much is debatable. Pein vs. Madara is a different thing compleatly, how is Pein going to touch Madara in his “weakened state?” Pein can’t beat Madara because there is no way someone with a huge enough ego to call himself a “god” would submit to someone weaker than himself ( And Pein clearly submitted to Madara in their one interaction, it wasn’t like Madara said “please do this” or even “the best next move is” he said “do this or else”) If that isn’t proof enough, explain this so called “weakness” because if this is Madara weak… But as I said above, anyone can say he “isn’t at full power” to make someone infintely stronger, based on their shown abilities, Madara would destroy him.

  116. @Mart, I never said Chibaku Tensei IS a Sealing Technique lol. I said “@Mart, Chibaku Tensei shouldn’t be considered an ATTACK, but rather a sealing Technique”, meaning we should think of it as a Sealing Tech because of its properties, but everyone knows its a Ninjutsu lol. Even Naruto Wiki agrees with me (kinda).

    “Fūinjutsu (封印術, Sealing Techniques) are a type of jutsu that seal objects, living beings, chakra, along with a wide variety of other things within another object.”- that’s what Chibaku did, it sealed a living thing in a huge mass of rocks. But it IS a Ninjutsu, however it has the properties of a SEALING jutsu. Is that any clearer?

  117. yeah, but using Tsukuyomi a few times tires Itachi, do you think he could handle the stress of making 5 SHADOW CLONES (his chakra being divided between 6 people) AND making the 5 of them use Tsukuyomi as well as himself? Nah, he wouldn’t do that. He would try using Amaterasu and Fat Guy Realm would just absorb it. Then there’s Susanoo, its a jutsu as well. And we’ve seen that Fat Guy Realm can absorb chakra by touch too, so he could, in theory, absorb the chakra that makes up Susanoo, thus nullifying the jutsu. But let’s look at Itachi and Pain. Pain did a….well a shit-load of cool stuff, Itachi just looked cool, really, who WOULD win? (I think the answer is clear.)

  118. Kisu. 1. Now that you’ve cleared up what you were saying about chibaku tensei, all I can say is NO it should NOT be consider a sealing technique. While it does sound like one effect wise, how it carries out it’s effect is compleatly different. Sealing Techniques have little to no effect in the real world, they make an object disappear and leave a seal (kanji/lines) in place of the object. Chibaku Tensei on the other hand ONLY has effect in the real world. Furthermore: Chibaku Tensei surrounds the opponent with rock but it doesn’t put them INSIDE the rock, meaning they get crushed by it instead of becoming it.

    2. Like I said before, it wouldn’t be the strongest tskyoumi, because of the split chakra but still a powerful genjutsu. It would be the same effect as trying to attack one body anyway because it’s all Nagato’s chaka anyway. Another thing most people don’t realize is that once Itachi catches someone by making eye contact, he doesn’t have to maintain it, two of itachi’s three battles it was him against a team of ninja, and though he has only ever caught one person in genjutsu at a time, he still felt with the other people he was fighting, do you think they just sat there and said “oh let’s watch while he mind-rapes our comrad”???

    3. Sussano: Sussano is a summon not pure chakra/jutsu, so while he COULD steal Sussano’s chakra, he would get hit by Sussano’s sword first (and the sword would seal him)

  119. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/16/ Susanoo’s blade HAS NO physical form, it get pwned by Pain and his abilities in that case.

    Susanoo is not a summon. It is FORMED by the MS. An unusual summon is Gedo Mazo, but Susanoo doesn’t classify as such, because we have seen both Itachi and Sasugay giving it form, so if its FORMED, its essentially made of chakra and CAN be absorbed by Couch Potato Realm.

    @Chibaku Tensei and Sealing, there are some differences between the Chibaku Tensei and Sealing, BUT it does have the effect of seals. To seal means “to tightly or completely closes or secure a thing”, and that’s what Chibaku Tensei does. It might kill them (well, most likely it will kill them), but they would still be closed off and tightly secured inside the rock moon it creates.

  120. madara would easily beat pain as pain would not be able to touch him with any attack. plus madara could easily just send any of the 6 paths to his special space/time area whenever he wanted.

  121. @Danny, and Pain could just as easily re-summon them. Madara can’t beat Pain, he has no attack power, and Pain doesn’t seem to have any attacks that could touch Tobi. The fight would be nothing but a stalemate. END OF DISCUSSION!

  122. @mart1

    Do you remember when Pain performed the body cloning technique, only using a small amount (I think it was 20% of their chakra) and Itachi was unable to use his MS in that battle (I guess he could have just chosen not to, but I find it more likely that he couldn’t). SOOO if he couldn’t use his MS in that case, and the chakra levels were 1/5 what he normally has…. 5 clones would have too little chakra to use MS.

    Also, about Susanoo. We have seen that Itachi and Sasuke need to concentrate in order to maintain Susanoo to a certain level. From Sasuke’s experience, it also seems he needs to use chakra actively to use it (as he used only Susanoo, Karin said Sasuke’s chakra was weakening). This means it isn’t a summon, because once summons are made, the summoned “creature” stays until it is exhausted, then it returns to where it came from. The summon isn’t “held” there by the summoner.

  123. LOL @kisuzachi: YOU STARTED THE CONVERSATION… and YOU ENDED IT 2 funny

    but seriously
    Pein vs Itachi = winner Pein… Pein covers all aspects in a fight, Just one Itachi and he isnt better at even at least one of the things the “Peins” are.

    Pein vs Madara = Madara… he doesnt need offense he could jus teleport them somewhere.

    Rinnegan vs Sharingan = Rinnegan…. remember the sharingan is a watered down version of the Byakugan, which is a watered down version of Rinnegan

    Rinnegan vs Byakugan = Byakugan… willing to debate

    Hinata or Sakura = (for me) Hinata

  124. “BUT it does have the effect of seals” however much it might resemble the dictionary deffinition it doesn’t meet the naruverse criteria because it doesn’t send anything into extra-dimensional space. Shadow bind and most genjutsu also cause immobility but that doesn’t make them sealing jutsu. Chibaku Tensei has a real world force not an extra dimmensional force so it could be reflected by Yammata’s mirror.

    “Do you remember” but itachi WAS still able to use other genjutsu AND in his fight with Kakashi were he actually did use a clone he also used tskyoumi.

    Kisu. I think we’ve reached an opinion stalemate, this debate is now all about where you think their limits are and how much their weaknesses could be exploited which both come down to opinion. But it was a fun debate.

    As far as Madara vs. Pein goes, I fail to see how it is a stalemate, pein can’t attack Madara in anyway while Pein is full of openings. Too name a few: Madara could teleport a kunai into his body, mind rape him with sharingan, or teleport him into an unsurvivable condition like space, a volcano, or undersea (he might be able to survive the last two locations)

  125. @ripcord. you say that the itachi clone couldnt use MS only normal sharingan but maybe that would be strong enough to trap pain in a genjutsu. so maybe he could create six clones and trap each body. or maybe one body would be enough to trap all 6 anyways. who knows. none of these battles will take place anyway. lets debate an actual battle that may occur naruto v sasuke. and please no stupid comments about “sasugay” just debate strengths and weaknesses.

  126. Busshy-brow I have to disagree on renningan> sharingan, there’s something called genetic mutations, which due to evolution means that it’s “watered down” state is actually better because having this form is more benificial, look at the number of renningan users compared to the number of sharingan users, one is obviously better at surviving.

    I would like to submit two theories for debate:

    1. Madara’s plan: Madara said he wanted Sasuke to weaken the kages so that he could take the Kage’s hostage. Then realizing they weren’t weakened enough, he retreated. But how would you keep kage level ninja hostage? Chakra-supressing drugs maybe, but more likely Genjutsu, specificly the multi-person tsukyoumi he planned to use with the Jubi but on a smaller scale, this way he could use the Hokage/Raikage to lead the bijju into the open and effectively gain world domination.

    2. Madara’s abilities: Madara has shown three main abilities, space/time teleportation, Amatseru suppresion, and Multi-person Tsukyoumi (he said he could but lacked the chakra). I think (though have no proof) that Madara via EMS has all of the shown MS techniques, Kakashi’s, Itachi’s (he showed an affinity for two at least) and Sasuke’s (he has Amatseru suppresion) and even Danzo’s mind control (look at the kyubbi)

    what do you think?

  127. @Danny: I think Naruto would win because he could do what the Raikage did but he wouldn’t have to get his arm burnt because of the frog katas

    if Sussano takes out his sword/sheild though he’s probbably screwed

  128. @ Mart1:
    “Madara could teleport a kunai into his body”

    Let’s just quit now. If he could do this, he should have done that against all the 5 kage… come on man, there are limits to what his teleportation technique can and cannot do.

    @ Mart 1:
    Where is the evidence pointing to Pain being Madara’s bitch?


    If anything, this dialogue shows that they are equals.
    1) If you (Madara) n a friend (Pain) co-owned a company, you’d probably say “that’s a fucking dumbass idea” to a dumb idea.
    2) If you (Madara) work for your friend (Pain) you’d re-word that to “That’s a good point, but I think we should re-think this.”
    3) If you (Madara) hire your friend (Pain) you’d say “that’s a fucking dumbass idea… YOU’RE FIRED”

    What I’m trying to say is that the conversation b/w Madara n Pain was more like #1. Or else, Madara would have added something like “if you fail, don’t bother coming back” or “if you fail, you will be tortured” etc…

  129. Also, Madara says:

    The key words are “OUR GOALS.” If this guy was superior to Pain, he’d be like “MY GOALS WILL BE ACHIEVED.”

    It’s not like Madara is trying to build team spirit here or some other Human Resources crap by including Pain in the goals part to make him feel a part of this operation… it’s cause they are EQUALS.

    Further, I think we’ve sorta established that Pain’s goal and Madara’s Moon’s Eye Plan are different goals, so Madara was bsing to Pain about buying into Pain’s goal. If Madara could dispose of Pain so easily, he wouldn’t need to use these tricks as coersive force or the threat of kicking Pain’s ass would ‘persuade’ Pain to ‘buy into’ Madara’s Moon’s Eye Plan.



    Why would Konan say this if it wasn’t an established fact? Let’s not say that the footnote – “EXCEPT THAT TIME YOU [Madara] WHOOPED HIS ASS… AND I FORGOT TO INCLUDE THAT TIME ITACHI WHOOPED PEIN’S ASS TOO” – doesn’t roll off the tongue smoothly.

    Pain n Madara teamed up because they compliment each other – or in other words to use each other. Pain’s brute power + Madara’s 100+ years of experience/knowledge/strategy/planning/etc…

  131. @ Mart 1: “Busshy-brow I have to disagree on renningan> sharingan, there’s something called genetic mutations, which due to evolution means that it’s “watered down” state is actually better because having this form is more benificial, look at the number of renningan users compared to the number of sharingan users, one is obviously better at surviving.”

    I have to disagree on this.

    First off, it’s a FACT that the Rinnegan is the strongest eye form of the three main ones. That doesn’t mean that it’s the best in say genjutsu – the Sharingan is the best for that (although we don’t fully know all the details of the Rinnegan). It’s just the best OVERALL.

    Secondly, as far as we know, the Rinnegan just pops up every hundred or so years naturally or something. So, Rikkudo Sennin was the first Rinnegan possessor. That means he was ‘mating’ with a normal girl… whose offspring branched off to Uchiha and Senju.

    In other words (in genetics terms), you can’t get a FULL-BLOODED Rinnegan offspring when you mate 1 pure-blooded Rinnegan male with 1 NORMAL/Regular female. The offspring is a mixed race (halfer).

    In real life, 1 ASIAN + 1 CAUCASIAN doesn’t equal 1 FULL BLOODED ASIAN or 1 FULL BLOODED CAUCASIAN. The kid will be a HALFER/MIXED RACE.

  132. @bushy-brow, nah dude, i think the MAdara vs Pain debate is a bit silly lol. That’s the one i wanted to end lol. And apparently, you’re a tad sleep, that HAS to be the reason you said the Byakugan is better than the Rinnegan.

  133. Im with you on all you said Star69, I think everyone is just caught u in the whole “Madara is the final villain” thin, when he may not be.

  134. about Madara & Pain teaming up, I think the relationship was similar to Madara’s relationship with Sasuke now. We don’t really know that Madara is stronger than Sasuke, in a sense it doesn’t even matter. Madara took Sasuke, told a story he wanted Sasuke to hear, and is using Sasuke to do what he wants, not because of brute force, but from coercion.

    I believe this is how it happened with Nagato, Madara came up & said “gee, your situation sucks, I bet I can help you, lets strengthen the organization you have” or “how about you join my organization, we can both get what we want” and Nagato, so desperiate for a path to peace signed up.

    I also believe a similar thing happened to Itachi, but I’m covering this in my fanfic, so I’ll stop that here.

  135. @Star69: Madara isn’t the “I love to battle” type (seeing he has only had one real fight, in-which he acted as a henchman for deidara) He probably did what he did with Sasuke and showed Pein his time-space abilities so pein would know he’d have no chance at winning. And again, I fail to see how Madara wouldn’t COMPLEATLY own pein in a fight. Also Pein’s plan and the “eye of the moon plan” are pretty similar because the both revolve around making the Jubi as an ultimate weapon. The “eye” plan is just Madara’s plan B because he was originally going to USE Pein.

    As far as Renningan vs. Sharingan goes, counting the EMS version, the time/space jutsu of the sharingan put it WAY above the Renningan. Add in Itachi’s three techniques and it’s no contest.

  136. @mart1

    I think you’re still missing the point. I don’t think Madara showed Nagato any force or power to convince Nagato to work for/with him. I think Madara simply showed Nagato that he could make Nagato’s “dreams come true” per say. Nagato drank the koolaid and liked it, so he went with what Madara said, intending on fulfilling his own goals.

    Of course, I think that Nagato had to be careful because Madara knew his secrets and that his own body would be in jeopardy in a fight with Madara, so because of that I think that Nagato would be reluctant to pick a fight with Madara.

    We haven’t seen much of Madara’s abilities, except for the dimensional portal stuff (and it appears that it is limited because he can only teleport himself or weakened people). He was also able to stop Zabuza’s sword when Suigetsu swung it, and I admit that was impressive, but beyond that we have no idea.

    I think that the Rin’negan’s strength comes from the fact that the user holds domain over life and death, can use all 6 elements extremely well, and has the ability to project chakra. I personally believe that if Nagato had just stuck with his own body (like the Sage Six Paths did most likely) he would have been even more powerful than Six Paths of Pain, maybe not as powerful as Rikodu though.

    Plus, we have seen that Nagato has a HUGE chakra reserve (though not as much as Kisame), so with a huge chakra reserve, plus the Rin’negan’s ability of fine chakra control (as told by Jiraiya as to how Nagato easily mastered every technique he was taught) makes him a powerful force.

    Here’s the biggest problem with any fictional fights with Itachi: Itachi, in my opinion, AVOIDED a big fight at all costs. We NEVER saw him go all out. Why? Because he had a master plan of passing on the Uchiha legacy to his brother, and he was never out to kill anyone from Konoha. He could have busted out Amaterasu and fried Jiraiya if he wanted to (since he just as easily used it to escape the Toad Stomach), but he chose to run away instead. I don’t think it was because he considered himself and Kisame to be outmatched, rather he considered it too much trouble and too risky and he wasn’t in it to recklessly kill anyone like Sasuke has been doing.

    Itachi’s moves had to be carefully planned so he had enough strength to defend what was important to him. I definitely know he was stronger than he let on, since Konoha still considered him extremely dangerous, and Itachi’s appearance after the chunnin exams was enough to keep the Konoha elders in check.

    That being said though, if Itachi was not aware of Pain’s secret, Itachi loses. If Itachi was aware, then he was certainly smart enough to exploit it. I think that’s the biggest hinge to this theoretical battle. And I doubt Itachi knew Pain’s secret because Itachi, it seems, never fought with Pain. Itachi was always paired with Kisame and Pain with Konan.

  137. to people saying that pain had the power to bring back dead people. this is not entirely true as evidenced by the fact he couldnt bring jiraiya back. only people he had killed recently. id love em to do more episodes on how akatsuki was formed and how people became members and what the point of the rings and nail varnish is. plus show all the fights between akatsuki and the bijuu. doubt it’ll ever happen though.

  138. “Madara showed Nagato” That wasn’t my point, my point was that Madara was/is more powerful and IS the true leader of Akatsuki, and that however powerful Pein is, he was just the figure head because Madara didn’t want to draw attention to himself or risk the secret of his existance getting out until he revealed it. And that despite Pein’s incredible strength, he would still lose to Madara due to Madara’s skills.

  139. Personally, I think that it can only be 1 of 2 things:

    1. Madara is weaker than he lets on (but he does such a good job of convincing people to do what he wants) and he will be weaker until he uses Sasuke & Itachi’s eyes in some way.

    2. Madara is saving what strength he has for important situations, similar to how Itachi saved his.

    I think Madara was more the leader of Akatsuki because of his intellegence, rather than his power. It is very clear that Madara has gotten countless people to do what he wants without the use or show of force: Itachi, Sasuke, Nagato, and probably Danzo, Fugaku and the Uchiha before Itachi killed them all. He is also manipulating the 5 kages right now, without fighting at all himself.

    He’s kindof like Saruman, his most dangerous quality isn’t the “magic” he can use, but rather his ability to coerce with his voice.

    I really don’t think it was that Nagato was afraid of him, I find it more likely (based on the fact that the Uchiha have been demonstrated to be excellent liars!) that Nagato was duped by Madara.

  140. Again “Nagato was afraid” is not my point, Madara probably DID coerce Pein by lying, because that’s his way of doing things, that doesn’t make him WEAKER than Pein, simply smarter. As far as Madara’s weakness goes, as the Tsuchikage stated, Madara from the old days could anihilate any/all of the current kages/bijju, That his teleportation and strengh are him “weakend” just shows how powerful he was originally. It’s like retarding Albert Einstein, even if he lost a quarter of his IQ he’s still above average inteligence. If it shows how and what Madara’s weaknesses are then okay, but as of yet, he has none and is immortal (because no attack can hit him)

  141. I think the 6 peins coulda took on the kages and beat them. I got my reasons just dont wanna go into to much detail, but since Madara couldnt im gonna assume Pein is stronger, listen Madara is a manipulator, you talk about how dumb pein was to be controlled by him but look at sasuke , sasuke must be the biggest reject considering anyone that says one thing can convince him to come to there side, and truth is its easy to talk ppl who’s had a bad life to talk them into doin things for you. im not sayin pein could beat madara back then but as far as right now goes, I think pein has the upper hand, thats all I gotta say bout that, look at naruto to, prolly thee strongest willed person ever on the series and he got talked into the Fox to get him to realise the last seal, just to show you no matter how strong someone is givin the right siuation than can be controlled,

  142. Madara aint immortal, Ill answere that statement by saying he wanted pein alive cause pein could bring him back to life when the time came for it

  143. “cause pein could bring him back to life when the time came for it” Not neccesarily, Madara could have wanted Pein to use his powers for any number of things ex. Jubi revival, reviving important people if they died like Zetsu or Sasuke, and of course, just to simply avoid having to find another “pawn” to synch with Gedo Madzo.

    I also gotta disagree with “6 peins coulda took on the kages” because if Naruto (one Kage level ninja) can defeat Pein, then all together the kages should be able to pull off a win. But, we’ll never know.

  144. @mart1

    When Madara was talking about how Nagato was supposed to save something for him, Madara was speaking specifically about the resurrection jutsu. It is unclear as to whether it was a “just in case” technique or if it fit in directly with Madara’s plans.

    It is true that Nagato’s death does make synching with Gedo Mazo tougher, but I don’t think he was as upset about that, since it seems he can just use Sasuke etc.

    And you can’t just say A>B and B>C so A>C argument with regards to fights. It just doesn’t work in Naruto. So you can’t say the 4 kages (Danzo doesn’t count, since he ran away) could have beaten him, especially if Pain’s secret was not known. Naruto had some help, Jiraiya’s intel, the strength of the toads (summons I mean), and the fact that Nagato/Pain was already weakened and vulnerable after using Shinra Tensei. This doesn’t mean Naruto’s victory isn’t special… it just means Naruto, just like Sasuke with Orochimaru, didn’t beat a top strength Pain.

  145. @Ripcord: look at Naruto’s skills 1. Shadow clones 2. Super Strength 3. Super Speed 3. Ability to hit opponents without touching them (needed for HGR because of chakra absorption) the Raikage alone has these three abilities. Add in the Tsuchikage’s chakra sensing to find Nagato and you match Naruto’s abilities. Add in the rest of the Kages (yes Danzo too because he IS a kage) and you have more than enough power/battle experience to make up for the rest of Kohana’s small battles and the lack of intel. One or two of the Kages MIGHT die but their combined power would be more than enough to take on ONE ninja.

  146. danzo isnt officially kage yet though. he’s only acting hokage until the jonin make it official which i doubt will happen now he’s been a prick.

  147. @mart1

    Yes, Naruto had a lot of advantages when battling Pain, including 1)Underestemating Naruto, 2)Pain was weakened 3)Toad support (although the Kages probably have summons too).

    IF the Kages were not informed of Pain’s weaknesses and what each of the bodies could do, then I think they would be at an overwhelming disadvantage. If Naruto didn’t know about what Hungry Ghost Realm could do, he probably would have just tried to hit it with a Rasengan.

    Plus, Danny is right, Danzo isn’t really Hokage, the Jounins do have to vote him in. I bet he still gets voted in, though…

  148. “IF the Kages were not informed of Pain’s weaknesses” okay, but where did the information come from? from engaging Pein in battle, mainly from Jariya and Kakashi. Jariya’s a kage level (he was asked but turned it down), and Kakashi’s a high level Jounin (given Gaara’s support/Danzo’s actions probably the next Hokage), so that’s still roughly a battle of three kage ninja plus a few extra people. And While we can’t say person A > B > C means A > C we can say person A tires at ABOUT this rate, has these types of weaknesses, and these strengths which match up with Person C’s Strengths/Weaknesses. One Kage might make the mistake of attacking HGR, but the others would see and analize that mistake. As far as Danzo goes, he’s the acting Hokage, he attended their meeting, he makes Hokage decisions and has Hokage strength. I don’t see why he shouldn’t be counted, didn’t this debate spring up out of if Pein attacked the Kage meeting or something? wasn’t Danzo there? but Meh, we don’t really know much about him anyway. Four kage’s against Pein would be a closer match, but still POSSIBLE (Just not as clear cut)

  149. @Mart, Naruto never defeated Pain. Naruto had A LOT of advantages over Pain, but the MAIN difference between Naruto vs Pain and the KAges vs Pain is Pain’s goal. He’d want to kill the Kages, the fact that he could do ALL of that while not wanting to kill Naruto shows just how strong he is/was.

  150. “just how strong he is/was.” Pein Is/was strong, for pure destructive power, he’s probably #2 (the sage being #1) BUT he HAS limits, however inhuman they may be for the ninja world. There is always circumstances, and Pein WAS only defeated once, but he was defeated. I don’t claim that Naruto didn’t have a shit load of help, but that that help only gets him so far and while it assisted his victory, without it he would have just compensated through trail and error. There are things Naruto can do that the Kages can’t like go 8-tails to escape Chibaku Tensei, but they can do things he can’t ex. The Mizukage could melt the rock to escape harm, the Raikage has an element advantage over earth, and the Tsuchikage has his Dust element to shrink rocks to avoid them (not sure if that’s actually what it does, it’s kind of ambigous) I also admit that there is a diference between kill and capture missions, but you’re stamina doesn’t change based on what your objective is.

  151. can’t wait to debate this weeks chapter. it possibly further proves that danzo is madara.

  152. @Mart, Pain basically took on the strongest ninja army in the Naruverse and destroyed it within a few minutes. His stamina is negligible. And Naruto wouldn’t win through trial and error. If you make a mistake against Pain, you’re dead or in Naruto’s case, you’re captured.

  153. Strength in Manga’s is exponential because the next villan has to be stronger than the last (look at bleach, captains are at least ten times stronger than vice-captains because of bankai). The “strongest ninja army” is fairly comparble to two of the strongest ninja on the planet (Kage’s). He WAS at his limit stanima wise, he just pushed past it because of his grudge against Konoha, at the cost of his lifespan. As far as “If you make a mistake against Pain, you’re dead” that’s my point, Naruto had the village to make mistakes for him, the Kage’s have the other kage’s mistakes to learn from as long as one kills Pein and lives, they win.

    Before we go any further with this debate, THIS IS ALL MY OPPINION, there isn’t any tangible proof here. We don’t know 1. the Kage’s full range of jutsu 2. How much Pein held back against Naruto 3. How much he pushed himself because of his Konoha grudge (well, he did push himself to death but…) 4. the limits of the Kage’s

  154. @Mart, correct. That’s the point i try to make in every Pain-related debate. WE DON’T KNOW HIS FULL POWER. So i think this is where it can end. Agreed?

  155. “make in every Pain-related debate” I agree in THIS debate, it’s relevent because we don’t know enough about the Kage’s, but not in EVERY case, and not to get into the Madara debate again, but if there is an instant win scenario (A jutsu-style that Pein’s skills can’t beat no matter how many times he tries) then stanima doesn’t really matter. For instance Pein said if Jariya knew Pein’s secret he would have been defeated, and yet Jariya’s stanima isn’t near Naruto’s so Pein must have know a specific set of weaknesses Jariya might have exploited to win like the Genjutsu thing, or Sage mode tracking, ect…



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